SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]
" If it was deceitful it wouldn't have included "-snip-" to show I edited it. Apparently you can't understand that I only quoted the part I was responding to and you're still hung up on that, something that happened fucking months ago. And no, it didn't change the context one bit. The only thing that was edited out was your explanation of what your stupid ass symbols meant on your account list. lol I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your nonsense, you already had a chance to respond to that post and instead of giving a reasonable response you resorted to personal attacks. The "[removed by support]" speaks for itself and now that you've thrown your little tantrum you want to go back to that? It's not worth my time trying to reason with someone like that. Just a lowly standard player. May RNGesus be with you. Last edited by Melissa_GGG#0000 on May 2, 2017, 9:35:39 PM
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" I'll be honest, if the Labyrinth was in this game when I first started researching it, I wouldn't have bothered with the game at all once I experienced how much I hated it on a conceptual level and implementation level. It's in the same vein as open-world free-for-all PVP for me (won't touch a game with that, no matter how much I like the rest of the game - UO and MUDs proved to me that that experience plainly is not my cup of tea). Stupid mini-games being the source of character progression (non-optional), has always been a "fly in my soup". It's one reason I have a dislike for FFX, despite liking the rest of the game, the final ultimate weapons were gated behind those tedious annoying minigames... so even though I did them ONCE on my first playthrough for each character, it put such a bad taste in my mouth, that on a subsequent playthrough, I didn't bother with most of those weapons and instead, crafted my own damage-limit-break weapons... but now I seriously don't want to play that game again. (on their own as their own games, with better control schemes, more polished gameplay, etc maybe a couple would be ok (I like chocobo racing, but not that horrible balloon collecting bird-dodgeball game; and don't remind me of... too late, lightning dodging), or if they were totally optional with rewards like materials for crafting that you could also get elsewhere, or just lots of gil, I might enjoy the challenge of them... but no... just no, never again. On the other hand, taming monsters by defeating them with the taming weapons and collecting them for the monster arena, and all the special bosses you got access to, was great fun, would do in every FF game that had that feature; even Chocobo racing in FF7 was alright, in comparison, and I loved chocobo digging in FF9 and FFXI - but I hated Naja Salaheem's mercenary rank-up mini-games in FFXI.) Back to the Labyrinth and PoE. To provide some context: Theory-crafting was the biggest draw for me to this game. I liked the freedom of the skilldrasil compared to many other games (and how it reminded me of the good parts of FFX). I liked researching uniques and interactions between them and skills and finding something fun to try (and I liked their adapting the FF7 concept of materia socketed into weapons and linked to change how skills worked - though I imagined larger changes than are present in the current game). I was never one for min-maxing, because I knew I'd never reach "max" with how I play, and the fun builds I choose to play (more for thematic elements, than gameplay concerns), so that was an unreasonable goal - though I am an achiever, and enjoy conquering challenges under my own constraints by choice - such as defeating FF1, FFV, FFVI, FFT and FFXII without ever using magic - only items and skills, same with Vagrant Story). In MMO's, I like to solo things designed for groups. I like challenges that make use of the game's core gameplay and the stats I've been building for hours and days, being able to use them in strategic ways. The Ascendancy classes, in some cases, provide new mechanics to build around or make use of to sometimes totally change a skilltree for a theorized build, letting the Ascendancy change which nodes you took as a priority, opening up new possibilities. They (paraphrasing the devs) 'provide flavor for the starting classes; differentiating them from one another.' Personally, I feel they are antithetical to the skilldrasil and customizability presented in the pre-ascendancy game, but they're not going away. To get Ascendancy classes, you have to go through a mini-game. I've made a post detailing how it is a separate game within PoE, and that it is now part of core character progression. And that is a problem, because this mini-game has a horrible control scheme, horrible UI, and is not fun for a lot of people, EVEN IF they can complete it "easily" despite all that. To enjoy the Labyrinth, I'd have to create a character that plays by the labyrinth's rules, which are only a subset of variables that all otherwise work just fine outside the labyrinth. Now, if one could ignore Ascendancy classes and just play the game as if they didn't exist, just options that you don't choose to take, people might have a leg to stand on to dismiss these complaints - if just using the skilldrasil could compete with an ascended character. However, the power provided by the ascendancies, in many cases, goes far beyond that. Now, GGG HAS to balance around people having the power provided by ascendancies. Even if they're not fully balancing the game around them CURRENTLY; if they don't, EVENTUALLY, ascendancies WILL be overpowered by default, and that's not a good state of balance. (Rory already said in a podcast that they're balancing endgame around players having ascendancies, so don't go saying they're not) So, now, when I think about PoE, and begin theory-crafting a new build because of a new unique released (or happens to drop, in SSF), my mind races, and I begin connecting the dots between possibilities, and then I run into the Labyrinth wall, and my motivation sinks and I figure, "Why bother?" It's just not fun. I don't want it to waste my time on disconnects, or even just that style of play. I don't need that sort of frustration, even if the rest of the time would be fun. I'm not a masochist. Maybe it'll be better with a controller on Xbox (but I don't own an xbox... unless maybe you can play it through Windows10? haven't researched that - still they're not going to connect accounts, so I'd be starting from scratch again, SSF) Many builds never get off the ground now, because to utilize them, I'd have to endure the not-optional-for-the-build mini-game.
Spoiler
PS: I'm a guy, and the features I'm looking for in a wife are more personality based than physical. All humans fart, so, no, that wouldn't impact such a relationship. The Labyrinth is a lot more than a fart, though; it's more like finding out she's also a he, and even though it would only come into play in certain situations, it's still a big enough issue if I just found out on my wedding night, that I'd have a big problem with it. Let's not continue with this illustrative line of reasoning, please. |
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Yeah this is what we need feedback from someone that doesnt even play the game at endgame complaining about the lab.
https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. |
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" And all games have something you don't like, a perfect one doesn't exist. If the good outweighs the bad you like the game and hate it if it's the other way around. The only difference with evolving games like PoE is it doesn't have all the moving parts from the get go so it's harder to make up your mind about it and it may change significantly over the development course. Some would say the difference is also in the player being able to influence the development process, but do we, really? I mentioned something a few dozen pages ago, it was a question more than an answer really, about how much can a payer actually hope to influence the development of a game. We probably can be a fairly big factor in finetuning balance, ergonomics and such, but when it comes to game features we aren't all that powerful. Lab is a decent bit of content so they have been working on it for a while, which means that it was pretty much done by the time they have shown us the video, at that point there wasn't really much we could do, even if all the pitchforks on the forum rose in unison. The backlash would need to be nothing short of devastating and it wasn't nearly so, the community even seemed fairly stoked about the idea at the time. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs. ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► Last edited by raics#7540 on May 3, 2017, 6:46:25 AM
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" Your entire post, while it looks impressive, falls flat on its face because none of the examples you give to argue the existence of the Lab in PoE have any valid relations whatsoever with the way the Lab is implemented in PoE. It's not a mini-game. And it's not flawed at all. You just don't enjoy it. Fine, that's possible, I'm sorry it's such a burden to you. Most of us do enjoy it and don't want to see the artistic and creative freedom of a developer stripped and buckle before a vocal minority that happens to not enjoy 3% of their game's content! In short, if you really hate it so much, PoE might just not be for you. That's okay. Unless, of course, you spend your time normally playing, on forums instead. Posting 484 pages of disgust and nonsense, like a few others here, disguising it as a discussion filled with constructive criticism, while all they really do is project their hatred of the game upon those currently enjoying it, while blaming us "white knights" and "fanboys" and "trollish ones" and whatever else we've been made out to be, for calling them out on it. Carry on my waypoint son, there'll be peace when maps are done. Lay your portal gem to rest, don't you die no more. 'Cause it's a bitter sweet symphony this league. Try to make maps meet, you're a slave to the meta, then you leave. Last edited by Xavathos#5130 on May 3, 2017, 6:52:28 AM
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" I didn't bother to rehash the whole debate in my current post, because the posts I linked already did that. I'll stand behind the categorization of the labyrinth as a mini-game. If you don't agree, we'll have to agree to disagree, because we're at an impass. @Raics, if the devs didn't want our feedback and suggestions, they shouldn't have a feedback and suggestions forum. Since they do, they want to hear from us. If all they want is praise and thanks, they should change the forum section name. Online games are constantly changed and updated. SOME changes proposed in the OP would keep the Labyrinth in tact, and just provide an alternative for only the Ascendancy Points. This would not invalidate all the hard work that went into creating the Labyrinth, and would bring relief and enjoyment back to the players who just can't stand the mini-game. Other suggestions are more far-reaching and less likely to be implemented (like this thread asking how people would change the Labyrinth to make it better, where I posted this.) I liked the game before Labyrinth, now I play despite the Labyrinth, with the knowledge in the back of my mind that my characters will never be what they could be. There are some features/mechanics I'll never be able to use (Pathfinder would solve my nagging game issues with flasks, particularly against bosses, refilling over time or on crits, instead of relying on summoned minions... the dream, but only a dream) |
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" Really good post, Zaludoz. It echoes a lot of the feelings I have perfectly. Again, disregard the sad-sack forum trolls. All they have in life is this. It's a place to spread their lonely inner misery upon normal people like us. Be well, exile. |
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" I don't think this is what they call 'useful feedback' because there isn't really much they can realistically do about the fact some people just don't like the lab. The part of their thought process related to ascendancies that we're certain about are pretty much these points: 1. We don't want to give them for free (fair 'nuff, and you shouldn't). 2. This is roughly the amount of hassle we want to put players through to get them (they're trimming some parts of it a bit in 3.0 so there's some wiggling room left but seems it's not too much). 3. Your character ascends after a series of trials established in the lore (seems unlikely they would be willing to budge here, it's a major design point). 4. We want those trials to feel as impactful as possible, it's supposed to be a big even in your character's progress and that's why we went through all this trouble. So, if you don't like the basic concept of the labyrinth they won't fix anything by changing a few things about it while maintaining point 2, there will still be lab in the game, you will still have to run it and you will hate it. The right way to fix it could be offering different ways to ascend and I'm not really against that. They could do more ascension trials the way other cultures would do it, Ezomytes would probably do them through a series of quests to slay notable beasts (including Nessie), Karui could do it through fulfilling special prophecies, the Maraketh could do racing. It might be a good idea if they decide on giving us more ascendancies in future, these are Empire ascendancies so we could have the Ezomyte or Karui sets too, though the problem with that idea would be you wouldn't be able to choose again, if you want those from the Empire it's Izaro for you. And we hit the point 2 snag again, those trials should require a similar time+effort total and would imply a significant amount of new content if they're to feel as polished as the lab and check point 4, even if they do use some of the existing mechanics. I could see them doing it for that different sets idea but not as a pure alternative, the lab just isn't universally hated enough. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs. ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► Last edited by raics#7540 on May 3, 2017, 9:33:19 AM
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" I knew I could count on you to prove my point for me. Though I would have rather seen you refrain from your insulting remarks towards us. A debate requires an opposition. Remember that, young one, the next time you think of smashing your own windows. Carry on my waypoint son, there'll be peace when maps are done.
Lay your portal gem to rest, don't you die no more. 'Cause it's a bitter sweet symphony this league. Try to make maps meet, you're a slave to the meta, then you leave. |
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I hate this GGG's point of view.
Ascendancy points are not some kind of luxury. They are down to earth routine basic part of the game. We take them for granted and GGG should be less conservative about that. I would be happy if they get rid of 3 Labs and leave Uber Lab as it is. |
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