SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]
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Huge props to OP for gathering all the issues we're having here. Since you made it so structured and civil with all the arguments clear, we're free to put out our personal view of it - which I intend to do now. I'll try to get in line with the structure that you created for the discussion, but no promises.
Preface - opinion
The root of the problem for me is the fact that traps have arbitrary damage mechanic.
" This is the exact point that I brought up and tried to explain to some degree in my own post. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1708352 Because of the % ehp dps mechanic, traps prove to be extremally dangerous for some builds, and are a cakewalk for any regen build. That doesn't fall in line with all the defence option customization that we have in game (essentialy wasting the potential that GGG worked so hard to achieve). Given that the lab is mandatory content to get insanely powerful ascendancy points, it hinders build diversity. I'm not against gating something powerful like that behind content. Contrary, I think it needs to be gated because otherwise it's meaningless and you might just as well remove ascendancy classes all together. The two are not mutually exclusive you see - you can have gated, rewarding content that does not feel like it's a different game altogether.
Lab Issues Breakdown - opinion
I'll do every issue because I feel like I fall to each category at the moment, **** me. Let's see. " I agree that the trap MECHANICS don't fall in line with the rule system that PoE has established, and that's just wrong. You don't change the ruleset of a game mid-game, because it looses meaning. As stated above, if traps don't care about your build, why should you? That being said, traps as an IDEA are perfectly fine for an arpg and PoE in general, especially that GGG went through the effort to make their existance compelling. " We're going back here to previous points. Gating the content using exotic ideas is fine. It breaks the routine. I'm having no issue with the fact that lab itself is mandatory, and not even what's inside that lab that's bothering me. What's bothering me is what underlines what is inside, and that underlining mechanic is in odds with everything else established in the game so far. Get it? " I like the fact that it's tied up in a manner that makes sense. I also find lab really thrilling and stressfull as hc player, which is a good thing. It really gives you an interesing "tempo" or "rythm" in your overall gameplay experience. The thing is the mandatory component is crucial here, because it builds the rythm. You could argue that boss fights are not fun and we should get rid of them as mandatory, but that way you would loose the anticipation, momentum of the gameplay on larger scale. If lab is pure optional as an alternative to maps, you nullify that feeling. To maintain it, you need that great reward that you just have to get asap. Would not like it if that went away. " Everyone hates a divided and toxic community unless you're a sociopath feeding off the discord. We all like this game. I like to think we want what's good for it. On a sidenote (feeling like this falls into this category) I believe that hc is suffering in particular, and personaly picked up this subject because I would hate to see the hc community eroded over time because of it. " This is the one subject that I feel like people misunderstand. I'll put it this way: I'd rather have "harder" traps dealing MORE damage to an average chatacter for an average level for that content - but falling in line with the rest of the ruleset that is established in PoE. Mechanically, think of them as regular mobs that do damage to you as you walk past them. Not arbitrary, arcade damage. It's not an arcade game. For me personally, it's not even a game about killing monsters and getting loot, I just treat it as a way to test the build. For me it's a game about builds and building characters. If you put out mechanics that DO NOT CARE about the build at all, it's bad for this particular game. If it would be mario or anything arcade, no one would even notice that damage dealt is in fact % and not a determined flat number, because there would be no built in mitigation to affect it. Guess what - we have all that built in devices that we can use to mitigate, but they just won't work. All the effort of players figuring out how to use the tools, and devs putting up the good work of providing the tools, is nullified. gonna add notes on next paragraphs when I have more time. Great work again, OP. /edit/tldr: my main point here is that people mistake the lab as the ultimate evil and just want to get the ascendancy points because they like those. I think the core of the problem is in fact the trap mechanics. Not even traps themselves. The mechanics behind them. /edit 2: Even if you feel like you disagree and mandatory lab is a pain, but I think you might actually miss it if it's gone. Let me get you a quick metaphore: There is a building called "Fallingwater" made by frank lloyd wright. Leading up to the huge *** hall with great view, is a tiny *** corridor. It's dark and unpleasant, one person fits through. You might ask, why the **** is that corridor so tiny in a multi million dollar villa (priceless atm though). What, they run out of money to make it bigger? Is it lack of skill from the designer or what? Nope. The corridor is there to highlight the hall. When you walk through it's like you just took a breath of fresh air. Think about that in terms of game design. Last edited by Razis#4500 on Aug 4, 2016, 10:57:29 PM
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" Because you know, the original idea and way to implement it has to be exactly the same that the one they ended up putting in the lab, I mean it cannot be possibly any different. Such simple thinking there ... good job. I will listen to it later, kinda curious. " Rofl, do you actually hear yourself ? like seriously .... Thank you god Albinosaurus, to have the all mighty understanding and know what's best for this game and what all player wants. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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" Plus 1 https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. |
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@goatjam
If you are not appealing to the masses then ur product is eventually doomed to fail. POE has gotten away from its core and it going to suffer from player losses. Its already begun. GGG is pretty much silent on everything except fluff in their own forums. We cant take too much into the fact they treat lab subject like Chernobyl. Its a shame really. Im not sure how u think a policy of non-communication is now the right move for GGG as it goes against everything they have done in the past but no longer do. Saying well just dont do lab if u hate it so much u dont need those points is one of the most idiotic things u can say. The most powerful game changing points is optional? Seriously get a clue. That is like sayin well u dont have to have gems in your sockets you could autoattack stuff to death and do tier 1 maps. Common man. Support the cause. Free the ascendancy points from LAB.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216/page/1 Other top 3 issues. Make standard great again. Fix XP (add fatigue system). Fix lag. MR GGG tear down this ascendancy wall. |
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" lol PoE started getting away from its core when it started giving free loot and free power creep to everyone, way before lab. Lab makes Wraeclast somewhat dangerous again, it's more like going back to its core. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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Lol.
Tired of trolls? Ignore them.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1473168 |
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" Every product like this is "doomed to fail" people can play it as long as there is new content and a reason to continue to play it, but unlike very large AAA game companies they don't need to sell a magnitude of copies to remain profitable. Part of what allowed them to make the game in the first place, the way they wanted is they didn't need to make the game appeal to as many players as possible. Not sure if you understand the term whale, but it applies pretty well here. Responding to feedback on forums is tough, they can't say anything without really fucking up the balance of the situation. Lets say someone post feedback about something that is slated for change, sharing that information too early can lead to complications and disappointments it if isn't ready. What if they agree with the idea, but don't think it is a wise investment of resources, can't really say that can they? Responding to threads just to acknowledge that someone has read it is also pointless because it takes away from dev time for no positive gain either. Like I said before what does GGG have to gain by saying they are or aren't going to change the lab, in the next patch or any future patches? Nothing, if they say it isn't going to get changed you complain, if they say it is going to get changed you wanna know how and then after all of the complaints listed here about this or that being what is "wrong" with the lab they realize they can't cater to all of these complains that I personally view most as "i just don't wanna do it" Well thats too bad, you do them anyway to get the rewards, the exact statement Chris made on the podcast months ago. Auto attacking and the lab is completely different, but hey whatever shitty comparison you gotta make to make yourself feel better. Tell me what content in this game do you think is not possible without the additional points. " Perandus is really the league that gave away free loot, that was with the introduction of the lab. Still prophecy is a pull back on those reigns and hopefully they won't give loot away so easily going forward again. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. |
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" You're arguing that lore can be changed. That is what Regulator was also arguing. Lore is just an idea. The sunk cost into lore is primarily voice recordings. This is a relatively minor part of the production costs, way behind programming and graphic arts. It is relatively easy to change. Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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" So not only do they have to change the lore, they still have to spend time programming the changes. The lore is just another downside and one that to my knowledge they've never gone back on to date. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. |
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The beetle will never see over the dung hill. He has bad vision, and is happy to roll around on the hill.
Tired of trolls? Ignore them.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1473168 |
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