SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Turtledove wrote:

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Oh, the "Lab is optional" bullshit again? Yeah, nobody buys that. Try selling it elsewhere.

The dung beetle says, "I saw you sucking on poop the other day."

Beetle that doesn't normally eat poop says, "I was dying of thirst and hunger. That doesn't mean I like it."

The dung beetle says, "Doesn't matter you now have to eat poop everyday. I don't want to hear anymore complaints that you don't like poop. If you don't eat poop then you can't eat anything else but eating poop is completely optional. You spend more time complaining about eating poop than it would take you to just eat the poop. Eat poop and no more complaining! I have spoken!"

These anaalogies always make me laugh. Thanks for making my day man. :D

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Pyrokar wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Oh, the "Lab is optional" bullshit again? Yeah, nobody buys that. Try selling it elsewhere.

The dung beetle says, "I saw you sucking on poop the other day."

Beetle that doesn't normally eat poop says, "I was dying of thirst and hunger. That doesn't mean I like it."

The dung beetle says, "Doesn't matter you now have to eat poop everyday. I don't want to hear anymore complaints that you don't like poop. If you don't eat poop then you can't eat anything else but eating poop is completely optional. You spend more time complaining about eating poop than it would take you to just eat the poop. Eat poop and no more complaining! I have spoken!"

These anaalogies always make me laugh. Thanks for making my day man. :D

Truth is that I probably laugh at it harder than anyone else.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

so far the furthest I have had to go was shavronne.

Speaking of frogger, I am constantly playing it in maps because of bearers/volatile blood.

Buzzsaw / swirling blades traps? corrupted blood/poison. use those pots!

Spike throwing traps? porcupine beasts w/ poison mod. machinegun chickens.

Spikes from the floor? Brutus! leap away! leap back!


The frogger comparison is getting old.

Those aren't really valid comparisons because:

1) You can kill/cc the monsters. You can't interact with the traps.

2) The monsters are continually changing position and changing you around. It's not a "wait to move" game.

3) Many of those effects don't behave in the same manner as the compared trap.

If you don't like the Frogger comparison, you'll have to wait for Lab to be changed so that it doesn't play like Frogger, because right now it really does.

1. lab traps don't move, the difficulty offsets. you still have to avoid bearers/volatile blood by some means, and if you do not, you will die. I use movement skills or speed pots. for barers, Similar enough. The blade traps are nothing more than melee monsters that don't move.
2. I hardly ever wait to move in the lab, and if I do it is for no longer than it would take me to kill a pack of mobs in a map before I move on, but then I am not a very good player. Still similar enough if we are only considering time. the time it takes the best players to clear a gorge and the time it takes the best players to run the lab is pretty close to the same.
3. They are very similar. Spinning Blade traps and buzz saws are dots you mitigate by avoiding or potting same as poison and bleed. Porcupine quills from a poison map you avoid by either not killing or you have enough defense and pot charges to mitigate the damage.

there are differences between lab traps and mobs, but the way you deal with each is very similar to the other. you can either avoid them, or you can mitigate the damage.

The frogger references are not doing anything but insulting a whole lot of people who did a lot of work, that I am sure they are very proud of. the people who created the lab did not do it to piss people off, they did it because the creative team thought it would be a nice addition to the game. You don't think it is, fine. that is no reason to shit on them with frogger references and "the lab just sucks" posts, when there are many more differences between frogger and the lab, and the main game and the lab, and the lab sucking is purely subjective.

GGG is a company true, but it isn't run by robots. There are real people in there with feelings just like you.

I truly hope they remove ascendancy points from the lab for you guys, ot seems to be the most popular solution, but it will also make me sad, because it will only turn the lab into wasted content.

Against separation of ascendancy points from lab. Those two are tied together.

It makes sense as a fix for lab, but it doesn't make sense content-wise. Ascendancy points were designed with lab in mind, around the izaro challange. For that reason I have a feeling GGG won't ever do that.

Personally I'd much rather see lab rebalanced. (trap mechanics changed, obviously)

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Razis wrote:

Against separation of ascendancy points from lab. Those two are tied together.

It makes sense as a fix for lab, but it doesn't make sense content-wise. Ascendancy points were designed with lab in mind, around the izaro challange. For that reason I have a feeling GGG won't ever do that.

Personally I'd much rather see lab rebalanced. (trap mechanics changed, obviously)

Actually, Chris Wilson has stated that Ascendancy Points were originally designed separately from the labyrinth. Ascendancy points were envisioned prior to the release of the Scion. That being the case, it does not really nullify the rest of your point.

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Razis wrote:

Against separation of ascendancy points from lab. Those two are tied together.

It makes sense as a fix for lab, but it doesn't make sense content-wise. Ascendancy points were designed with lab in mind, around the izaro challange. For that reason I have a feeling GGG won't ever do that.

Personally I'd much rather see lab rebalanced. (trap mechanics changed, obviously)

Appreciate the feedback on the topic but as you can obviously see besides that we also propose lab rework ideas that dont decouple ascendancies from the labyrinth so im sure you can agree with some of them.

As for the "doesnt make sense content-wise" GGG and Chris have different opinion, and because the result is actually lab gating ascendancies that does not mean that it wouldnt make sense otherwise. Here go to 34:40 and hear Chris talk about that. If you are bored he basically says : "ascendancy points started out as an awakening feature (the expansion that added a4, jewels, lockstep), giving class specific passives as rewards in act 4". Thats also an indirect answer to all those "lore will be ruined" doomsaying dung beetles.

Then he continues from where he stopped before that little "history lesson", to say how the team wanted to add a shiton of content inside the labyrinth to incentivize people to run it, in short implying that they knew the content is way too experimental to have the results they wanted, as it indeed happened, people received very poorly the labyrinth as an entity, and it wasnt until AFTER endgame labyrinth that the reddit posts against it stopped because guess what: They ADDED EVEN MORE REWARDS and CONTENT there. So there you have it, basically they sugarcoated the whole thing to seem attractive, and for a period of time endgame labyrinth was the most effective zone to farm until the nerf to treasure chests arrived bringing it a bit lower than uber atziri from a farming point of view.

In other words yes ascendancy points make a lot of sense even outside the labyrinth no matter what people are used to or what think of as "right".

Since you support lab rebalance, take your time to give feedback about the suggestions regarding that in the opening post if you please.

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Turtledove wrote:

Beetle that doesn't normally eat poop says, "I was dying of thirst and hunger. That doesn't mean I like it."

The dung beetle says, "Doesn't matter you now have to eat poop everyday. I don't want to hear anymore complaints that you don't like poop. If you don't eat poop then you can't eat anything else but eating poop is completely optional. You spend more time complaining about eating poop than it would take you to just eat the poop. Eat poop and no more complaining! I have spoken!"

Yeah these analogies always put a smirk on my face, with the occasional hard laugh as well. BUT brace yourselves, because Mr. Dung Beetle is definately coming. :D

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Xtorma wrote:

GGG is a company true, but it isn't run by robots. There are real people in there with feelings just like you.

I truly hope they remove ascendancy points from the lab for you guys, ot seems to be the most popular solution, but it will also make me sad, because it will only turn the lab into wasted content.

I have contemplated on the first part a lot of times, and i often realise how harsh i personally sound sometimes regarding GGG and in extent the developers. You are right to bring it up because we often forget simple/obvious things and missbehave. So i want to apologize to GGG staff for every impolite post i made adressing them. And i dont mean the harsh critisism i make from time to time they deserve but also understand it, but the wording and the attitude i often employ to those posts. Hope i can remain "clean" in that matter.

As for the second part, thats something that shouldnt happen if the reasoning behind why people like the lab is true. Lab lovers everywhere say : "lab is awesome because its an alternative to endgame", "its a break from the main game", "its gameplay is something new and refreshing", "lab navigation and traps are fun", "the rewards on merci/endgame lab are fucking OP". I genuinely cant see how decoupling the ascendancies will have any effect on that and thus making lab "wasted content", since the fun factor still remains there for all lab lovers and plus that the ascendancies can also remain there too if there is an alternative. So truly can you please elaborate on this a bit more? Cause is something that has been mentioned in the past too but never analyzed a bit more to actually make sense when seen more deeply.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Razis wrote:

Against separation of ascendancy points from lab. Those two are tied together.

It makes sense as a fix for lab, but it doesn't make sense content-wise. Ascendancy points were designed with lab in mind, around the izaro challange. For that reason I have a feeling GGG won't ever do that.

Personally I'd much rather see lab rebalanced. (trap mechanics changed, obviously)

Actually, Chris Wilson has stated that Ascendancy Points were originally designed separately from the labyrinth. Ascendancy points were envisioned prior to the release of the Scion. That being the case, it does not really nullify the rest of your point.

Really? Had no idea. Was a bad call to junction it, but it was really hard to predict prior to ascendancy release so how can you blame them. Still, now it has gone to a point where if you took out ascendancy from lab it just... wouldn't make sense. Unless one doesn't care about the labels that mechanics get or the lore, then it's fine. I do care though, because in PoE alot of what we get is explained in a really tight manner, would be a shame to waste that.

/edit: actually, no. it was not a bad call to junction it. There would have to be somhing that gates or introduces it in the progression. Mechanics that "gate" the content is what is the problem here, not the fact that the content is introduced to us in a compelling way. Fix the mechanics and it's gonna be fine.

example: if it was not a lab, it would be a map with a boss. Izaro himself could pop up and be like "im gon **** yo **** up." (would be bad storytelling but that's not the point). If it would be gated behind a plain boss and that boss would deal % ehp damage, people would go batshit just the same.

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Razis wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Razis wrote:

Against separation of ascendancy points from lab. Those two are tied together.

It makes sense as a fix for lab, but it doesn't make sense content-wise. Ascendancy points were designed with lab in mind, around the izaro challange. For that reason I have a feeling GGG won't ever do that.

Personally I'd much rather see lab rebalanced. (trap mechanics changed, obviously)

Actually, Chris Wilson has stated that Ascendancy Points were originally designed separately from the labyrinth. Ascendancy points were envisioned prior to the release of the Scion. That being the case, it does not really nullify the rest of your point.

Really? Had no idea. Was a bad call to junction it, but it was really hard to predict prior to ascendancy release so how can you blame them. Still, now it has gone to a point where if you took out ascendancy from lab it just... wouldn't make sense. Unless one doesn't care about the labels that mechanics get or the lore, then it's fine. I do care though, because in PoE alot of what we get is explained in a really tight manner, would be a shame to waste that.

/edit: actually, no. it was not a bad call to junction it. There would have to be somhing that gates or introduces it in the progression. Mechanics that "gate" the content is what is the problem here, not the fact that the content is introduced to us in a compelling way. Fix the mechanics and it's gonna be fine.

example: if it was not a lab, it would be a map with a boss. Izaro himself could pop up and be like "im gon **** yo **** up." (would be bad storytelling but that's not the point). If it would be gated behind a plain boss and that boss would deal % ehp damage, people would go batshit just the same.

You make good points. Remove both from the game. WIN.

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Regulator wrote:

Appreciate the feedback on the topic but as you can obviously see besides that we also propose lab rework ideas that dont decouple ascendancies from the labyrinth so im sure you can agree with some of them.(...)

Since you support lab rebalance, take your time to give feedback about the suggestions regarding that in the opening post if you please.

Damn, I just quickly glanced through your original post (I usually disregard walls of text, I'm sorry) and it's actualy full of content and reference points. Looks like gold to me. I'll read up on it when have a chance and comment.

/edit omfg this is gonna be so much fun! you gathered and catergorized every aspect of the issue that we're having. TY OP!

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Xtorma wrote:

1. lab traps don't move, the difficulty offsets. you still have to avoid bearers/volatile blood by some means, and if you do not, you will die. I use movement skills or speed pots. for barers, Similar enough. The blade traps are nothing more than melee monsters that don't move.
2. I hardly ever wait to move in the lab, and if I do it is for no longer than it would take me to kill a pack of mobs in a map before I move on, but then I am not a very good player. Still similar enough if we are only considering time. the time it takes the best players to clear a gorge and the time it takes the best players to run the lab is pretty close to the same.
3. They are very similar. Spinning Blade traps and buzz saws are dots you mitigate by avoiding or potting same as poison and bleed. Porcupine quills from a poison map you avoid by either not killing or you have enough defense and pot charges to mitigate the damage.

there are differences between lab traps and mobs, but the way you deal with each is very similar to the other. you can either avoid them, or you can mitigate the damage.

The frogger references are not doing anything but insulting a whole lot of people who did a lot of work, that I am sure they are very proud of. the people who created the lab did not do it to piss people off, they did it because the creative team thought it would be a nice addition to the game. You don't think it is, fine. that is no reason to shit on them with frogger references and "the lab just sucks" posts, when there are many more differences between frogger and the lab, and the main game and the lab, and the lab sucking is purely subjective.

GGG is a company true, but it isn't run by robots. There are real people in there with feelings just like you.

I truly hope they remove ascendancy points from the lab for you guys, ot seems to be the most popular solution, but it will also make me sad, because it will only turn the lab into wasted content.

As far as the trap mechanics comparison goes, I still don't agree. You're stretching the logic a lot to achieve that kind of thought process and I don't buy it. However, regardless of the semantics involved, calling it Frogger isn't about insulting the devs; it's a description of the gameplay in comparison to the rest of the game, and that has been the main problem all along. We want to ascend by playing POE, not Frogger.

I actually do appreciate that the devs put a lot of hard work into making the content, but that doesn't mean the content is good. It's not. At all. Lab was a mistake, and they should just admit that and fix the issue (that it's not really optional from a practical point of view). Gating Ascendancy behind it was a mistake. Trap gameplay was a mistake. Keys/Doors were a mistake. One shot mechanics are toxic as hell and undermine the decisions a player makes in their build.

I absolutely loved this game and recommended it to everybody before Lab existed, and now I don't even want to play it. It's that big of a mistake. Ascendancy was one of the coolest things they ever added to the game, and they stuck it behind the worst thing they ever added to the game.

It would be naive to think that Prophecy is why people didn't stick around this time. Prophecy has issues, but as content goes it was fine. Perandus was popular because item accessibility enabled people to play more builds, but we were all hoping that Lab would be fixed in Prophecy. It wasn't. We're sick of it. Prophecy is a ghost town.

I realize that some people like the Lab, though I cannot see even one redeeming quality in it, so I am not advocating that they delete it, but it must become optional if they want any form of player retention. My only hope is that enough people stopped playing this league as to put a dent in their bottom line so they will wake up to the reality that most players don't like Lab. When Chris made the statement that a lot of people were running it, he seems to have missed that it was only for Ascendancy, instead assuming (wrongly) that all those players actually enjoy the Lab itself.