SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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ShaUrley wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

I suspect over time people will QQ less and less leaving GGG to focus on the more important issues.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see which stops first: complaints about the labyrinth or the denigration of those who complain about the labyrinth. I'm not holding my breath in either case.

In this thread and other threads, there have been players that disliked the lab, not because of anything OP necessarily mentions, but because its a new piece of content they need to learn to do, which when you think about it is kinda funny considering this whole game was new and is new to players all the time. Old players just sitting around not expecting rather large changes to occur or to need to do another thing to improve the power of their characters.


Complain about tedious content in an ARPG game is a fucking joke. The whole fucking game is tedious, you spam 1 button over and over and over again against monsters most likely from range that have little to no chance to do anything to you. Then you spam a movement skill to "clear" faster. Complaining that traps are "tedious", but not mentioning the obvious, which is that traps at least are a treat instead of the pathetic challenge monsters are, well I guess thats too boring to you.

You aren't trying to "save the game" your trying to turn it into a dumb downed casual piece of shit like D3. No thank you.

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goetzjam wrote:

You aren't trying to "save the game"

+1

Because really what you want is for GGG to cater to your whims. No one altruistically comes here to complain; everyone is here for selfish reasons, regardless of viewpoint. At least you can see Goetz contributes to the game he loves which is really the only real way to keep GGG in business and, therefore, the only way to "save" the game.

Now let's pick something else divisive to argue about because this thread is beyond ridiculous and clearly GGG does not take your complaints seriously at all. The new map lab is a sign of how frivolously your suggestions about AC/Lab have been taken to date by GGG. By all means, post away but really the point is moot. Complaints have been heard, assessed, and dismissed.

I don´t get why Lab-Lovers are so eager to talk Lab-Haters down.

From what I´ve read the Solution is simple:

Set the Ascendancy Points free let Enchants and Chests in the Lab.

So the Lab-Lovers can still run the Lab over and over and over while the Lab-Haters can avoid it.

What is the Problem ?

No need top say " meh you Lab Haters are bad Players" " Skill over Gear " etc.

The Lab is not hard, for Lab-Haters the Lab ist boring, that is a huge difference.

I never died to a Trap or had a Disconnect in it but I can´t stand it.

It kills the Fun.
It is boring.

It is like there is only one Checkout in the Supermarket and you got 4 People in front of you.

One is paying Penny by Penny.
The other one is slowly packing his Stuff into his Bag and pays afterwards - Penny by Penny.
The third has not enough Money so the Manager has to come and bill out some Stuff.
The Fourth is doing all of the above while you stand in Line, forced to wait.

That describes my Feeling for the Lab.

Forced, boring Stuff.

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Shredzilly wrote:

I don´t get why Lab-Lovers are so eager to talk Lab-Haters down.

From what I´ve read the Solution is simple:

Set the Ascendancy Points free let Enchants and Chests in the Lab.

So the Lab-Lovers can still run the Lab over and over and over while the Lab-Haters can avoid it.

What is the Problem ?

No need top say " meh you Lab Haters are bad Players" " Skill over Gear " etc.

The Lab is not hard, for Lab-Haters the Lab ist boring, that is a huge difference.

I never died to a Trap or had a Disconnect in it but I can´t stand it.

It kills the Fun.
It is boring.

It is like there is only one Checkout in the Supermarket and you got 4 People in front of you.

One is paying Penny by Penny.
The other one is slowly packing his Stuff into his Bag and pays afterwards - Penny by Penny.
The third has not enough Money so the Manager has to come and bill out some Stuff.
The Fourth is doing all of the above while you stand in Line, forced to wait.

That describes my Feeling for the Lab.

Forced, boring Stuff.

Already listed at least 1\2 a dozen times why thats a terrible idea. If you aren't going to read anything but OP's post then thats on you not me.


Based on your profile I can see you basically "barely" play the game anyway, so yes we need to cater to people like you instead of sticking with the original design.

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goetzjam wrote:

Already listed at least 1\2 a dozen times why thats a terrible idea. If you aren't going to read anything but OP's post then thats on you not me.


Based on your profile I can see you basically "barely" play the game anyway, so yes we need to cater to people like you instead of sticking with the original design.

Ascendancy was originally designed separate from Lab. In fact, it was originally going to be released with talisman:

https://youtu.be/OlCEAei3fAo?t=33m10s

GGG is constantly changing the game design, mechanics (leech, crit, auras, reduced mana, blood rage, artic armor, eldritch battery, etc.), nerfing uniques, even legacy versions now, so the whole "original design" argument is moot. Designs change. GGG has done this many times in the past, and will do it in the future. Chris even mentions in the podcast the possibility, in the future, of having an alternative way of obtaining ascendancy point outside of the Lab.

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Assfinder wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Already listed at least 1\2 a dozen times why thats a terrible idea. If you aren't going to read anything but OP's post then thats on you not me.


Based on your profile I can see you basically "barely" play the game anyway, so yes we need to cater to people like you instead of sticking with the original design.

Ascendancy was originally designed separate from Lab. In fact, it was originally going to be released with talisman:

https://youtu.be/OlCEAei3fAo?t=33m10s

GGG is constantly changing the game design, mechanics (leech, crit, auras, reduced mana, blood rage, artic armor, eldritch battery, etc.), nerfing uniques, even legacy versions now, so the whole "original design" argument is moot. Designs change. GGG has done this many times in the past, and will do it in the future. Chris even mentions in the podcast the possibility, in the future, of having an alternative way of obtaining ascendancy point outside of the Lab.

Yea, this was even confirmed latter by PM for the open letter one of the forum members send, that it is more likely they will make a alternative way of getting points, than changing the lab to make it more fun for people that dont like the trap section.

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

Now let's pick something else divisive to argue about because this thread is beyond ridiculous and clearly GGG does not take your complaints seriously at all. The new map lab is a sign of how frivolously your suggestions about AC/Lab have been taken to date by GGG. By all means, post away but really the point is moot. Complaints have been heard, assessed, and dismissed.

I would guess GGG is taking this discussion seriously. They may be dead set on keeping the AC/Lab as it is, but I'm waiting for the next major release before I really judge what their intentions are. The 2 extra ascendancy points from mapping were surely already planned when they released the AC/Lab, and they weren't going to change that at the last minute, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't decide to make changes in the longer term.

As a side note on the topic of this thread, which maybe was already suggested someplace: why not have two different types of leagues the next time around? One league with the AC/Lab as it is now (actually two, since there would be SC/HC versions) and another league where the Lab is truly optional and completely separated from gaining ascendancy points. Of course, that would further divide the player base, but that's already happened. If nothing else, what league people chose to play would tell GGG if the lab-critics are really just a "vocal minority" or are actually representatives of a silent majority.

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ShaUrley wrote:

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

Now let's pick something else divisive to argue about because this thread is beyond ridiculous and clearly GGG does not take your complaints seriously at all. The new map lab is a sign of how frivolously your suggestions about AC/Lab have been taken to date by GGG. By all means, post away but really the point is moot. Complaints have been heard, assessed, and dismissed.

I would guess GGG is taking this discussion seriously. They may be dead set on keeping the AC/Lab as it is, but I'm waiting for the next major release before I really judge what their intentions are. The 2 extra ascendancy points from mapping were surely already planned when they released the AC/Lab, and they weren't going to change that at the last minute, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't decide to make changes in the longer term.

As a side note on the topic of this thread, which maybe was already suggested someplace: why not have two different types of leagues the next time around? One league with the AC/Lab as it is now (actually two, since there would be SC/HC versions) and another league where the Lab is truly optional and completely separated from gaining ascendancy points. Of course, that would further divide the player base, but that's already happened. If nothing else, what league people chose to play would tell GGG if the lab-critics are really just a "vocal minority" or are actually representatives of a silent majority.

+1

That would be the best way to know if they hit the jackpot with the Labyrinth, or they really screwed the pooch. Unfortunately, that will never happen, and we might just end up with the obtaining Ascendancy points in an alternate way while keeping the Labyrinth as it is...

When I first learned about Labyrinth I really presumed a maze like layered area, with traps (destructible ones because PoE is an ARPG), chambers/outdoors like in Act 4 where you can't advance until you clear the monster all combined in a "fun" way to not put an even larger emphasis on SPEED, you could obtain a moderate difficulty game when you balance to hit just the right pace, and just stop shifting from damage boosts/hp boosts/speed boosts to nerfing them at random (it seriously took them less than 1 week to observe that Shield Charge had problems, but they conveniently forgot for a longer time about CoC + Discharge/Ice Wall + LA/poison double dipping etc.)...

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Assfinder wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Already listed at least 1\2 a dozen times why thats a terrible idea. If you aren't going to read anything but OP's post then thats on you not me.


Based on your profile I can see you basically "barely" play the game anyway, so yes we need to cater to people like you instead of sticking with the original design.

Ascendancy was originally designed separate from Lab. In fact, it was originally going to be released with talisman:

https://youtu.be/OlCEAei3fAo?t=33m10s

GGG is constantly changing the game design, mechanics (leech, crit, auras, reduced mana, blood rage, artic armor, eldritch battery, etc.), nerfing uniques, even legacy versions now, so the whole "original design" argument is moot. Designs change. GGG has done this many times in the past, and will do it in the future. Chris even mentions in the podcast the possibility, in the future, of having an alternative way of obtaining ascendancy point outside of the Lab.

Whats the purpose of linking the video if you didn't pay attention to what was said, the whole expansion would have been released back with tailsman, which includes the lab. So no it was not designed separately, if you were playing at the time you would remember the fact that they starting announcing both the classes and the lab back then a bit ahead of schedule, he literally says that and they pushed off the expansion because they knew they could make it better.

So no ascendancy was NEVER really designed to be separate from the lab. Next time you link something try to actually listen to the content.


We've already been thru this, he indicates that they aren't completely closed to the idea of the AC points being awarded elsewhere, but THEN goes on to indicate that they like decisive content in the game that perhaps people don't enjoy doing, but do it to gain the benefits, which is literally what the lab is for some people. Furthermore he indicates that the idea that gets the least amount of hate from the people that enjoy the lab is one which keeps AC points in the lab, but offers a way to disable traps or complete a puzzle instead of navigating thru sets of traps.


We've already reached this point in discussion many many pages ago, I don't understand why there is a need to repeat this and overall it does absolutely nothing to achieve OP's or the goal of improving the lab by backtracking constantly.

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Yea, this was even confirmed latter by PM for the open letter one of the forum members send, that it is more likely they will make a alternative way of getting points, than changing the lab to make it more fun for people that dont like the trap section.

That doesn't mean they won't offer a puzzle like or alternative method inside the lab itself, because thats what Chris indicated that the people that enjoy the lab are most OK with. There literally could be 2 versions of the lab, one which is more trap based and one which is longer but more puzzle\mob based.

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As a side note on the topic of this thread, which maybe was already suggested someplace: why not have two different types of leagues the next time around? One league with the AC/Lab as it is now (actually two, since there would be SC/HC versions) and another league where the Lab is truly optional and completely separated from gaining ascendancy points. Of course, that would further divide the player base, but that's already happened. If nothing else, what league people chose to play would tell GGG if the lab-critics are really just a "vocal minority" or are actually representatives of a silent majority.

The "playerbase" might be split in terms of opinions but that doesn't give a reason to actually split the playerbase over 1 "contested" topic. If GGG is unwilling to split perm leagues between legacy and actual perm leagues, they aren't willing to run 2 separate sets of leagues, simply with an alternative AC method being the difference.

The other part is GGG doesn't design their game around the majority, had they done that from the start, we would not be here today. They design the game they want to play and we play it, if that means that 20 or so vocal people in this thread constantly complain about the same thing, instead of offering "good" suggestions, then so be it. Considering how big of an issue OP and others are trying to make this out to be, GGG would have had to make an announcement stating some plans if it were that large, but it isn't and the players here just want to seem like they are more important then all others or that GGG should waste precious dev time on reworking the lab or just "patching in" some bullshit shortcut so that 1\2 the people here don't have to do any additional shit to get the AC points.

Its honestly all but a joke at this point, I've tried discussing how to improve it without utterly butchering all it was designed to be, but that doesn't seem to be an option for some people. People making shit up, saying this or that, that simply isn't true. Don't link a piece of video and say it says something, when that isn't the whole picture or the whole scope of what was said. Stop being bias in a discussion and perhaps we can accomplish something. In the words of Malachai "you are being selfish"

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Assfinder wrote:

Ascendancy was originally designed separate from Lab. In fact, it was originally going to be released with talisman:

https://youtu.be/OlCEAei3fAo?t=33m10s

GGG is constantly changing the game design, mechanics (leech, crit, auras, reduced mana, blood rage, artic armor, eldritch battery, etc.), nerfing uniques, even legacy versions now, so the whole "original design" argument is moot. Designs change. GGG has done this many times in the past, and will do it in the future. Chris even mentions in the podcast the possibility, in the future, of having an alternative way of obtaining ascendancy point outside of the Lab.

Contrary to what some trolls may argue, you are absolutely correct.

I was wondering what could possibly be fueling the fervor that some have in protecting the mistake of gating ascendancy points behind traps? There hasn't ever been a significant push to do away with the trap game play? They've argued that if there was another way to get the points then no one would do the labyrinth. That seems silly since based on the lab ladder, more people seem to be doing the labyrinth for racing or enchants. It's also silly because even if that wasn't true and nobody did the labyrinth anymore then it would just prove that the people disliking the labyrinth was far greater than a simple majority. So it would be good that people didn't have to go through content they didn't like. Anyway, my thought was maybe some of these people that are so worked up about protecting the status quo are lab runners worried about losing business from people willing to pay to get through the labyrinth?