You are mistaking correlation for causation. While it is indeed true that so-called casual scrubs also hate the Labyrinth, your characterization of Lab haters vs. Lab lovers as a hardcore-vs.-casual debate is inaccurate, to put it mildly.
That's an empty claim. "innacurate to put it midly" is just a fancy way to say "nah anh, is not".
ofc We're both making unsupported assertions, the difference is that mine is plausable (i.e. the people who least like Lab are the less skilled more casual player who like virtual lawn mowing clear speed meta) where as you are implying that skilled hard core gamers are the ones making these whine threads which is not very plausible.
I base my opinion on reading countless examples of people talking about dieing in traps not liking traps and hating the need to slow down or backtrack. I find the traps to be pretty easy in almost all cases unless I get into a jam with flasks and make it interesting. So the sentiment that traps are something to complain about or a failed design element can only make sense to me if the complainer is not good enough at piloting and movement skilling through them (it really is terrifically easy to trivialize the traps with movement skills, which I actually find disappointing, to the point where if I'm solo I will deliberately try to do the traps the way they intended) to make them easy enough in most cases, hell trivial most of the time.
Yours is the very first time I've read anyone suppose that hard core gamers are the ones who make these threads. I've seen very little evidence of that. Statements like "It's not hard enough" and "there aren't enough traps that make me fearful" are not common sentiments in these threads. Also as you yourself point out farming lab is very lucrative (and yes I'm wrong I didn't think about how lucrative currency/helm enchants can make Lab when I said unrewarding side content, you are correct on that score). Yet I see almost no calls for currency drops to be nerfed and almost no "I hate lab" threads start with "it's just making me too rich".
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gibbousmoon wrote:
Is it, "I like to work for my rewards in a video game" vs. "I like to play for my rewards in a video game" ?
Almost? It is subjective, but in my case its more: I like to have compelling reasons to continue to play the game and areas that are a change of pace from the norm and perhaps more challenging than vanilla content appeal to me.
I think the Lab is well crafted from a game design standpoint. And I enjoy it. I would submit that lots of people do, or just are "meh" about it. Though I think it could use more tilesets and maybe marry it with Decent race format for a real Rogue-like content area. People who are ripping GGG on it seem to be just vindictive sorts who demonize anything they can't faceroll.
"
gibbousmoon wrote:
Or maybe not. The answer isn't as simplistic as you seem to want it to be. And characterizing your opponents in any debate as "the lowest common denominator" will rarely make your argument more compelling. Quite the opposite in fact, even for players who agree with you.
Just calling it as I see it. A lot of times the truth of a matter is unflattering. This is one of those times. The general tone of these threads is almost always whining about having to do content that isn't the same old Dried Lake walking simulator. For the same reason that everyone wants to run Strand, and Gorge maps, and other linear, no thinking, no doors, No dead ends, Temple Run map. These threads are just rife with people who clearly only want linear lawn mowing gameplay and anything outside that is demonized called a "failure" and characterized as annoying.
One thing I've learned reading forums (BB's, Usenet, web forums) for games over the years, "annoying" is almost always casual gamer code for "not easy" Raids and complex boss battles in games like ARPG's and MMO's that require skills are almost always called "annoying" in whine threads like these. The content that no one calls annoying is almost always the stuff that's faceroll for casual gamers. What does everyone love in POE? Dried lake until 80, strand, shore, gorge... Are you really going to argue these points because I'm blunt and don't feel like being politic about them?
You are putting words in my mouth, so allow me to state it again, simply:
Your argument is simplistic. I gave you multiple examples of why two different groups of individuals might have a different take on the Labyrinth, and could have given more, none of which has anything to do with hardcore-vs.-casual.
No, I did not claim that Laby haters are hardcore. Rather I said that the degree to which a player is "hardcore" or "casual" is, at best, irrelevant for many players, thereby demonstrating that the causative relationship you propose does not hold water.
And yes, dismissing those who disagree with you as the "lowest common denominator" doesn't make you a "blunt stater of fact." Instead it makes you appear hostile to reason.
Wash your hands, Exile!
Last edited by gibbousmoon#4656 on Feb 6, 2017, 9:53:43 PM
You're kidding, right? For the sake of argument, let's say both the Ascendancies and the enchantments are removed from the Uber Lab. Now, with that in mind, please tell me another area of the game that gives you more economic gain per hour than running the Lab.
Top tier maps that drop other top tier maps ?
You know, the lab is rewarding, but it might to be as much as you think it is.
To give you an example, out of the 110~120+ lab treasure chests (3 keys min, more like 4 on average I think ) that I have opened ( last room ), I had maps ..... twice.
Divination cards ? maybe 2 or 3 times at most.
I got many gems, only 2 or 3 times with actually high quality that you can sell like this and are not just good for vendoring.
I got some currency, and some midnight frags alright, but at the end ... probably not as much as fast high level mapping, with just that.
Now if you take currencuy for rushing people through it to give them their ascendancies, that's another story, I'm not talking about that.
If we consider the enchantements now, will the enchant sell well ? Maybe, it hasn't yet, if they all sell then it will have been very rewarding ( I did put them slightly under the market prices, but I feel that those are quite overpriced tbh ).
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Feb 6, 2017, 11:21:53 PM
It would be great if it was its own huge game with frogger style passives and skills and entire themed gear and shit but it isnt. Its a sub game in POE gating ascendancy.
You know, the lab is rewarding, but it might to be as much as you think it is.
You have to pick a good day (like yesterday) to make it highly rewarding.
I did.
The sample isn't that big, but big enough to say that it isn't as rewarding as some think it is, imo.
I'm still glad I did all those runs, don't get me wrong, I even got my main skill's enchantment.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Feb 7, 2017, 7:06:53 AM
No, I did not claim that Laby haters are hardcore. Rather I said that the degree to which a player is "hardcore" or "casual" is, at best, irrelevant for many players, thereby demonstrating that the causative relationship you propose does not hold water.
And yes, dismissing those who disagree with you as the "lowest common denominator" doesn't make you a "blunt stater of fact." Instead it makes you appear hostile to reason.
Again my premise is plausible in fact I suspect it's what most people think when they read these threads (the most people, the thousands of players who AREN'T posting about the lab because they are not motivated enough, "meh" or okay with, or even enjoy it). Your premise that Lab haters aren't generally less skilled and can't be typified that way is not only flying in the face of reason, but it's flying in the face of 90% of the posts that exist in these threads.
Why would one complain so bitterly about Lab if it's not giving them fits and frustrating them generating some of this emotion that's so evident?
What explains the vitriol if these haters are actually capable of getting through lab without trouble? Just look at the comments in this thread, it's well designed well crafted content that maybe takes you 25-40 minutes per character after your first. Even if it's not your cup of tea (too RNG'y too many traps) its like saying the IPA I like is too hoppy because you don't like IPA at all. Any reasonable person can see that, it's subjective. Yet this thread is filled with emotional angry testimonials MOST of which CLEARLY imply an inability to easily cope with the Labs gameplay. Also many of these are non rational subjective appeals such as: "I hate lab, so remove it" as if someone not liking something means it needs to be removed for everyone. Sorry everyone who likes a Grapfruit IPA, Mr. "All beers should taste like Budweiser" hates it so we're removing it.
By nature if you don't have any issue getting through it you aren't going to be motivated to make an emotional hyperbolic invective filled post about how much you hate it. Yet you would think some of these people caught GGG murdering their puppies browsing this thread.
Again the 600+ threads of Lab hate are just a tiny subset of the games population that are angry enough to go post. What are they so angry about if it's not that their "feels like a god" Lawn mower speed meta build dies in Lab (it doesn't feel like a god any more that makes them angry). To come here and throw tantrums about it after they did it with no trouble without dying, doesn't sound a little far fetched to you? So Explain the emotional content any other way...
"only 10% of players care about melee" - Aesop's Fox if he was a GGG dev
"when you die in this game, typically you're getting one shot, you're dieing in one frame; almost always" -Ben_
Last edited by alhazred70#2994 on Feb 7, 2017, 9:01:56 AM
My opinion is that Labyrinth is the worst content ever made in POE.
When i think that i need to go through this 3 times with every char i make(and i play hc,so prolly many chars this leauge) it makes me cry...
And IMO it's some of the most interesting content the game has to offer in terms of actual RPG D&D feel.
I am maybe not their new shiny "speed clear meta while watching TV" demographic they are actively courting; I admit but solo'ing uber lab last night on a lvl 80 character was some taught exciting (flasks running out in trap heavy areas, going super slow to find some mobs to kill to replenish with 20% health and such) even when I failed to have the DPS to deal with Izzaro solo I found myself wanting to retry which I will do in a few days when my gear is better and I've some more levels.
If you prefer virtual lawn mowing well congrats you appear to be the market they are seeking and you will PROBABLY get your way and the Lab will probably have ascendancies removed from it to become an optional side content that doesn't have enough reward.
Sadly this is the way things are going in all of the world, the lowest common denominator ruins everything. They drink craft beer when it becomes trendy and says "okay but not watery enough" and a million fake craft beers that are Budwieser with a hispter looking label spring up and you win, and all the people who like the real stuff have to weed through all the crap. In gaming terms that means the sort of "Temple run but with build complexity" game that POE seems to be moving towards.
Part of me would like to see Chris Wilson make a public statement about them reaffirming the original design goals and Manifesto's of POE and tell us they will be bringing it back into line of what you would expect of an unapologetically hard core ARPG. But I expect people like you will win in the end. You certainly are winning right now.
It feels nothing like DND because this is supposed to be an action RPG, not a CRPG. Traps there were strictly based on having a rogue in your party that has the appropriate level of "detect trap". Then you sit around for 10 seconds and then slowly creep forward. Traps were one of the worst parts of the game outside of exp farming. There's no "action" in sitting around and waiting for the spikes to go away, then moving tile by tile.
Labyrinth was never in the original game. It's a fairly recent addition, all things considered. Don't act like it's part of the "core game" and scrubs are going to come along and ruin it. I've been here since beta and I think labyrinth WAS watering down the game. I no longer play hardcore strictly because of labyrinth and how infuriating it is unless you're playing a character that stacks hp regen and you have a computer that will never lag (during the annoying fire zones) and you get lucky and GGG's servers don't poop out and dump you into standard.
That's not to mention that Izaro can one-shot many builds, including archers which I enjoy playing.
"If you prefer virtual lawn mowing well congrats you appear to be the market they are seeking and you will PROBABLY get your way and the Lab will probably have ascendancies removed from it to become an optional side content that doesn't have enough reward. "
What exactly do you think this game was like before labyrinth was added? It's less than a year old. PoE was doing just fine (growing, in fact) for nearly three years before Ascendancy came out. Labyrinth WAS the change.
This doesn't even include the fact that the entire labyrinth is laughable if you run a high hp regen build (like righteous fire with RF turned off). For Vaal pact builds (without CI) it's a total nightmare and flasks are their only way of regening. That is simply not acceptable when ascendancy points are locked behind beating this place.
You know, the lab is rewarding, but it might to be as much as you think it is.
You have to pick a good day (like yesterday) to make it highly rewarding.
I did.
The sample isn't that big, but big enough to say that it isn't as rewarding as some think it is, imo.
I'm still glad I did all those runs, don't get me wrong, I even got my main skill's enchantment.
It does sound like you got the short end of the stick or are/were expecting too much. Yesterday there were 4 keys + 2 lockers. Lockers give good returns:
Spoiler
Seriously you can get these:
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alhazred70 wrote:
<snip assumptions about "lab haters" lacking skills>
You can classify me as "lab hater" as I have made plenty of negative posts about some parts/aspects of the lab. And I dont fit your "cant do bla bla" assumptions.
No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
No, I did not claim that Laby haters are hardcore. Rather I said that the degree to which a player is "hardcore" or "casual" is, at best, irrelevant for many players, thereby demonstrating that the causative relationship you propose does not hold water.
And yes, dismissing those who disagree with you as the "lowest common denominator" doesn't make you a "blunt stater of fact." Instead it makes you appear hostile to reason.
Again my premise is plausible in fact I suspect it's what most people think when they read these threads (the most people, the thousands of players who AREN'T posting about the lab because they are not motivated enough, "meh" or okay with, or even enjoy it). Your premise that Lab haters aren't generally less skilled and can't be typified that way is not only flying in the face of reason, but it's flying in the face of 90% of the posts that exist in these threads.
Why would one complain so bitterly about Lab if it's not giving them fits and frustrating them generating some of this emotion that's so evident?
What explains the vitriol if these haters are actually capable of getting through lab without trouble? Just look at the comments in this thread, it's well designed well crafted content that maybe takes you 25-40 minutes per character after your first. Even if it's not your cup of tea (too RNG'y too many traps) its like saying the IPA I like is too hoppy because you don't like IPA at all. Any reasonable person can see that, it's subjective. Yet this thread is filled with emotional angry testimonials MOST of which CLEARLY imply an inability to easily cope with the Labs gameplay. Also many of these are non rational subjective appeals such as: "I hate lab, so remove it" as if someone not liking something means it needs to be removed for everyone. Sorry everyone who likes a Grapfruit IPA, Mr. "All beers should taste like Budweiser" hates it so we're removing it.
By nature if you don't have any issue getting through it you aren't going to be motivated to make an emotional hyperbolic invective filled post about how much you hate it. Yet you would think some of these people caught GGG murdering their puppies browsing this thread.
Again the 600+ threads of Lab hate are just a tiny subset of the games population that are angry enough to go post. What are they so angry about if it's not that their "feels like a god" Lawn mower speed meta build dies in Lab (it doesn't feel like a god any more that makes them angry). To come here and throw tantrums about it after they did it with no trouble without dying, doesn't sound a little far fetched to you? So Explain the emotional content any other way...
Your premise is indeed plausible, but it is contradicted by facts. Again, you are seeing high degrees of correlation (poorly skilled players who whine about difficulty on the forums also happen to hate the Labyrinth--shocking, isn't it) and mistaking it for causation. Lack of skill is not the only reason for Labyrinth hatred, and it is arguably not even the primary reason. Take a deeper look at all the suggestions for improvements put forth by people who dislike this content. If your theory were correct, then almost every critic out there would be calling for difficulty nerfs, especially to Izaro (the only really challenging aspect of the Labyrinth), and that is clearly not the case.
To anwer the question at the end of your post, I see approximately equal amounts of emotionally charged vitriol on both sides, and I expect the explanation for them is identical: People are highly invested in this video game.
It's a testament of sorts to how good a game it is, as otherwise people would not be so vocal--they would simply leave. It's also a testament of sorts to how sad it is that content so divisive was given such a central role in the game.
