Feedback and Suggestions - Labyrinth,the worst content ever made in POE? - Forum

" Ixoziel wrote: What exactly do you think this game was like before labyrinth was added? It's less than a year old. PoE was doing just fine (growing, in fact) for nearly three years before Ascendancy came out. Labyrinth WAS the change. Clear speed meta is very new, there was a time not that long ago when the game was much slower, I know my join date doesn't look like it but I have played the game a lot longer than it and I remember when namelock melee was actually good and killing a whole screen of mobs was only possible on builds that for the most part died when anything breathed in their direction. The Lab isn't very old and neither is the clear speed meta and this expectation that all content must be faceroll-able "like a god" by people who want the game to feel like temple run EVERYWHERE. " Ixoziel wrote: This doesn't even include the fact that the entire labyrinth is laughable if you run a high hp regen build (like righteous fire with RF turned off). For Vaal pact builds (without CI) it's a total nightmare and flasks are their only way of regening. That is simply not acceptable when ascendancy points are locked behind beating this place. Vaal pact eh? If you have a vaal pact build that is a one trick pony glass cannon, or hey just really poorly suited to lab because you can't for whatever reason adapt to it, then get a carry. If you come to the forum and throw a tantrum or call for people to be fired: then you need to get some self respect, and some realization that not everything in a game has to cater to you. "only 10% of players care about melee" - Aesop's Fox if he was a GGG dev "when you die in this game, typically you're getting one shot, you're dieing in one frame; almost always" -Ben_	Posted by alhazred70#2994 on Feb 7, 2017, 12:44:12 PM Quote this Post
" gibbousmoon wrote: Your premise is indeed plausible, but it is contradicted by facts. Which facts are you refering to? Fact is a word with a meaning you can't just use it to mean "things I prefer to think". I didn't say none of the lab haters are skilled you're using this tactic to deflect away from how impluasible your premise is. I simply generalized based on the typical content of posts in these threads that the main cause of lab hate is unskilled players who find it too hard because they prefer POE to be a temple run clone with linear bland speed meta gameplay. My opinions are opinions, you're trying to claim your opinions are facts. Once they get GGG to change Lab they will attack any map that isn't linear "bah maps with intersections are TOO ANNOYING". I've played any number of persistent multiplayer games where the dev team caved to the incessant call to dumb down and make the game easier for such people. making Raids easier, removing "tell" based boss atttacks in favor of face tanking EVERYTHING. POE is a hard core game yet it also has already begun bending to the will of the masses (aka the lowest common denominator has already effected POE to it's detriment). I mean I've seen this show before, it's the same thing on every game forum, casuals whine about anything that's remotely challenging and always couch their objections in ways that are rationalized like "Lab has traps, the rest of the game doesn't have traps, therefore Lab should be homogenized to be like the rest of the game" the reality is this: Lab has traps and is harder in some ways for some people and builds than the rest of the game. Ofc by "rest of the game" the meaning is clearly: Strand, Gorge, Dried lakes, Shore etc. i.e. linear maps that can be virtual lawn mowed without ever seeing a monster's animation, or needing to mitigate their attacks. "only 10% of players care about melee" - Aesop's Fox if he was a GGG dev "when you die in this game, typically you're getting one shot, you're dieing in one frame; almost always" -Ben_	Posted by alhazred70#2994 on Feb 7, 2017, 1:04:56 PM Quote this Post
" Ixoziel wrote: It feels nothing like DND because this is supposed to be an action RPG, not a CRPG. I no longer play hardcore strictly because of labyrinth and how infuriating it is unless you're playing a character that stacks hp regen and you have a computer that will never lag (during the annoying fire zones) and you get lucky and GGG's servers don't poop out and dump you into standard. First a quick lesson in gaming history, DnD begat the Rogue-like (well by way of Adventure and others of course) an action RPG that usually have traps. Eventually Rogue-likes begat Diablo, a light Rogue based game with graphics. the ARPG sub genre is a direct result of the Rogue-like genre, how much or little traps belong in an ARPG is entirely open to preference of the designers of the game. Personally I feel all of the game should have traps. Adding gameplay elements that allow adaptation, reward observation, and allow more piloting skill ceiling. Your preference that the game not have traps is just your preference, same as mine. Subjective, yet the designers of POE put them in, and despite your attempt to rationalize the game into a box it must never expand from. the designers disagree with the oh 600 ish threads of players who are angry enough to post their dislike. No longer play HC... As opposed to simply adapting or getting a carry... well the game should have choices that are hard... to do the lab or not to do it? get the Reward? Or live without? Or just punt and never play HC. All are valid choices and ones GGG should be proud exist in their game... too many games these days have NO NEED TO MAKE HARD CHOICES. In most MMO's it doesn't matter what build I use, in most games it doesn't matter how skilled I am. Glad POE doesn't remove choices and opportunities to be skilled from POE, I hope they keep it up in the face of this small % of vocal critics who are so reasonable that they call for people to be fired over a subjective preference. I mean there are multiple reasons why GGG should flat out ignore the sense of entitlement to reward without risk, and easy outrage over trivial issues. I know who I'd rather develop and modify my game for if I was in their shoes, and who I'd rather tell to GTFO. It would start with anyone who's small minded enough to act like their puppy got kicked because they don't like a feature. "only 10% of players care about melee" - Aesop's Fox if he was a GGG dev "when you die in this game, typically you're getting one shot, you're dieing in one frame; almost always" -Ben_ Last edited by alhazred70#2994 on Feb 7, 2017, 1:31:40 PM	Posted by alhazred70#2994 on Feb 7, 2017, 1:23:04 PM Quote this Post
" gibbousmoon wrote: Spoiler " alhazred70 wrote: " gibbousmoon wrote: No, I did not claim that Laby haters are hardcore. Rather I said that the degree to which a player is "hardcore" or "casual" is, at best, irrelevant for many players, thereby demonstrating that the causative relationship you propose does not hold water. And yes, dismissing those who disagree with you as the "lowest common denominator" doesn't make you a "blunt stater of fact." Instead it makes you appear hostile to reason. Again my premise is plausible in fact I suspect it's what most people think when they read these threads (the most people, the thousands of players who AREN'T posting about the lab because they are not motivated enough, "meh" or okay with, or even enjoy it). Your premise that Lab haters aren't generally less skilled and can't be typified that way is not only flying in the face of reason, but it's flying in the face of 90% of the posts that exist in these threads. Why would one complain so bitterly about Lab if it's not giving them fits and frustrating them generating some of this emotion that's so evident? What explains the vitriol if these haters are actually capable of getting through lab without trouble? Just look at the comments in this thread, it's well designed well crafted content that maybe takes you 25-40 minutes per character after your first. Even if it's not your cup of tea (too RNG'y too many traps) its like saying the IPA I like is too hoppy because you don't like IPA at all. Any reasonable person can see that, it's subjective. Yet this thread is filled with emotional angry testimonials MOST of which CLEARLY imply an inability to easily cope with the Labs gameplay. Also many of these are non rational subjective appeals such as: "I hate lab, so remove it" as if someone not liking something means it needs to be removed for everyone. Sorry everyone who likes a Grapfruit IPA, Mr. "All beers should taste like Budweiser" hates it so we're removing it. By nature if you don't have any issue getting through it you aren't going to be motivated to make an emotional hyperbolic invective filled post about how much you hate it. Yet you would think some of these people caught GGG murdering their puppies browsing this thread. Again the 600+ threads of Lab hate are just a tiny subset of the games population that are angry enough to go post. What are they so angry about if it's not that their "feels like a god" Lawn mower speed meta build dies in Lab (it doesn't feel like a god any more that makes them angry). To come here and throw tantrums about it after they did it with no trouble without dying, doesn't sound a little far fetched to you? So Explain the emotional content any other way... Your premise is indeed plausible, but it is contradicted by facts. Again, you are seeing high degrees of correlation (poorly skilled players who whine about difficulty on the forums also happen to hate the Labyrinth--shocking, isn't it) and mistaking it for causation. Lack of skill is not the only reason for Labyrinth hatred, and it is arguably not even the primary reason. Take a deeper look at all the suggestions for improvements put forth by people who dislike this content. If your theory were correct, then almost every critic out there would be calling for difficulty nerfs, especially to Izaro (the only really challenging aspect of the Labyrinth), and that is clearly not the case. To anwer the question at the end of your post, I see approximately equal amounts of emotionally charged vitriol on both sides, and I expect the explanation for them is identical: People are highly invested in this video game. It's a testament of sorts to how good a game it is, as otherwise people would not be so vocal--they would simply leave. It's also a testament of sorts to how sad it is that content so divisive was given such a central role in the game. Excellent post that I agree with completely with one correction. " It's a testament of sorts to how good a game it *was* Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!	Posted by Turtledove#4014 on Feb 7, 2017, 1:24:13 PM Quote this Post
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" Ixoziel wrote: That's not to mention that Izaro can one-shot many builds, including archers which I enjoy playing. This is just plain wrong. Unless it's a fully charged Izaro, or you're a complete glass cannon (and/or underleveled maybe), Izaro doest NOT one shot people. If you do not dodge the goddess, stand with no capped resistances and get hit with a Radiant slash, you might die very fast. But that's your bad and it's not getting one shot by Izaro. " Ixoziel wrote: What exactly do you think this game was like before labyrinth was added? It's less than a year old. PoE was doing just fine (growing, in fact) for nearly three years before Ascendancy came out. Labyrinth WAS the change. What about AFTER the lab was added ? You want to talk about how PoE is doing ? Because it has been growing more since lab has been released. So then what's your point ? And I find it silly to not play HC because of the lab, maybe HC wasn't for you to begin with, idk. " Zrevnur wrote: It does sound like you got the short end of the stick or are/were expecting too much. Yesterday there were 4 keys + 2 lockers. Lockers give good returns I got many uniques in the lab, but mostly trash. I do usually skip half of the optional chest. And often when I get a siler cache with a gold lead ........... it does not even trigger so :/// But I mean, why do you link all of those uniques ? Half of them are vendor trash, and I bet amost nobody use the Chitus' needles either. The jewels are nice yeah, those are nice drops. Thank you for the advice on lockers, maybe I'll check them more. And I am not ranting because I had high expectations, I am just pointing out that some here should stop thinking that the lab is amazingly more rewarding than everything else in the game. ( someone said a bit before in the thread : " You're kidding, right? For the sake of argument, let's say both the Ascendancies and the enchantments are removed from the Uber Lab. Now, with that in mind, please tell me another area of the game that gives you more economic gain per hour than running the Lab .). SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Feb 7, 2017, 8:43:13 PM	Posted by Fruz#6137 on Feb 7, 2017, 8:35:47 PM Quote this Post
" alhazred70 wrote: " gibbousmoon wrote: Your premise is indeed plausible, but it is contradicted by facts. Which facts are you refering to? Fact is a word with a meaning you can't just use it to mean "things I prefer to think". Try reading the rest of the paragraph. " I didn't say none of the lab haters are skilled you're using this tactic to deflect away from how impluasible your premise is. I didn't say you said that. I said that you said that I claimed that "lab haters are hardcore," and that I never said that. I asked you to stop putting words in my mouth, no more no less. And now you are doing it again. Fuck it, I rest my case. :) " I simply generalized based on the typical content of posts in these threads... That is precisely what you did, yes. Wash your hands, Exile!	Posted by gibbousmoon#4656 on Feb 7, 2017, 11:59:50 PM Quote this Post
" Fruz wrote: What about AFTER the lab was added ? You want to talk about how PoE is doing ? Because it has been growing more since lab has been released. PoE after lab addition >> PoE before lab addition. Not because of the lab but because of Ascdendancy == lab reward. " Fruz wrote: I got many uniques in the lab, but mostly trash. I do usually skip half of the optional chest. Intricate Locker(unique, can drop boots but odds are lower) > Curious Lockbox(key) > most others " Fruz wrote: And often when I get a siler cache with a gold lead ........... it does not even trigger so :/// 'Lead to gold' has never failed me. Or you mean sth else? The 'random mob drops unique item' I usually dont do. Disclaimer for all my comments on whats good and what is not: Not a 'pro lab runner' and playing SSF. " Fruz wrote: But I mean, why do you link all of those uniques ? Half of them are vendor trash, and I bet amost nobody use the Chitus' needles either. The jewels are nice yeah, those are nice drops. You missed the 'spoiler'? The random uniques (incl jewels) were for showcasing the streakiness of the rewards. Didnt know the jewels actually sell. Just checked poe.trade and they go for a few chaos... No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!	Posted by Zrevnur#2026 on Feb 8, 2017, 1:49:01 AM Quote this Post
I didn't miss the spoiler, deathrush is one very lucky drop that happens rarely afaik, which means that you cannot just drop it one day and say "hey, lab is always that rewarding !" And yeah, lead to gold. Then clear the area ( a good half was dead already ) => no currency drop, from any mob. You prioritize intricate locker over extra keys ??? Oo The few times I took those, I got trash in it. Treasure chests from Izaro do seem to me to have much better drops than intricates. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Feb 8, 2017, 3:00:19 AM	Posted by Fruz#6137 on Feb 8, 2017, 2:59:43 AM Quote this Post
Honestly, I like almost everything about the labyrinth, and wish more content instituted those traps (the tier 9 map with the docks tileset is a ton of fun explicitly because of that IMO). My problem is that my internet connection is not the best, and crashing at the end of a lab run means I just wasted the last 15-20 minutes. That's incredibly frustrating, and unlikely to become less frustrating when I collect the last challenge for Über lab. Luna's Blackguards - a guild of bronies - is now recruiting! If you're a fan of our favourite chromatic marshmallow equines, hit me up with an add or whisper, and I'll invite you! IGN: HopeYouAreFireProof	Posted by Budget_player_cadet#3296 on Feb 8, 2017, 3:20:12 AM Quote this Post