The amout of vendor trash makes me want to quit this game

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

An ARPG can try to be about random affixes, or it can try to be about uniques. It can also try to be about both, but there is zero synergy in such an approach; it only still exists to this day because of misguided D2 nostalgia.

If the itemization is about affixes, everything without affixes is utter trash, unless there is an in-game vendor who will let you trade it in for affixes. Which isn't to say the game needs to waste time dropping items without affixes, because you can vendor "blue" or "yellow" items too.

If the itemization is about uniques, everything that isn't unique is utter trash, unless there is an in-game vendor who will let you trade it in for uniques. Which isn't to say the game needs to waste time dropping non-uniques, because you can vendor unique items too.

No matter how you look at it, white items dropping is utter shit. If I was making an ARPG, it would be affix-based, no unique items (but "unique affixes" which only roll on one particular base type), and white items wouldn't even fucking exist.

Yep. Why not ponder the infinite ideas that could make drops more enjoyable. Unique affixes eh? I like the idea that some insanely original pieces of gear would exist. Add that, remove mirrors, and items would start to become worth the ID scrolls. If not this idea (which they will never do), something along this line of thinking.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

No matter how you look at it, white items dropping is utter shit. If I was making an ARPG, it would be affix-based, no unique items (but "unique affixes" which only roll on one particular base type), and white items wouldn't even fucking exist.

depends.
since loot in Path Of Exile is "dual tier" - tier one: type, rarity and item level. tier two: sockets, links and colors - an item which is "white" in tier one, can still be useful if it's "ranked high" in tier two, and very useful if it is both X-linked + "correctly" (for player) colored, AND high item level with a good base.

so yes, it's not that simple.
and yes, implementing risk/reward in Path Of Exile is effectively twice as hard.
and so is creating loot filters, which unlike Titan Quest's "press ALT to see rares" for example, needs to truly be customizable in Path Of Exile.

but GGG opting to do NONE, is bad either way.

Okay, so if you layer sockets (a truly detestable sysyem, imho) on top of everything else, then

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

No matter how you look at it, white unlinked items dropping is utter shit. If I was making an ARPG, it would be affix-based, no unique items (but "unique affixes" which only roll on one particular base type), and white items wouldn't even fucking exist. Sockets wouldn't exist, either.

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goetzjam wrote:

Stash tabs are not necessary to take advantage of most of the recipes. TBH I am surprised you even mentioned stash tabs as part of your argument at all because as far as I am concerned the only orb recipe that having extra stash space is even necessary is chance orbs and I have probably used that one a total of 6 times in my PoE career.

I will actually argue that having more stash tabs is kinda necessary to take full advantage of all the means of making money.

And no, I'm not some freebie-player whining; I'm saying this because I don't know what I'd do without my 22 premium tabs, and am HEAVILY contemplating bumping that to at least 40 at the next sale.

Currently, I have 3 tabs that hold nothing but currency, one tab each for both the Chaos and Regal recipes, and two tabs currently with uniques/rares for the chance orb recipe, among many other tabs (like 4 tabs of gems, a tab and a half for maps, to say nothing of the tabs for rare gear I'm NOT vendoring)

A big overlooked factor in economies, ESPECIALLY virtual ones, is the difficulty and time of making a transaction. As one example, why would someone go pay Clarissa in act III 80 jewler's for 20 fusings when Vorici only charges 64? It'd be because they'd already purchased Vorici's for that day, and the "not having to wait an extra day" is worth spending the extra 16j.

Similarly, when it comes to gear, it's a question of whether you can readily deal with holding onto a piece as dead weight in your bank to sell it to another player for 1c... Or just vendor it for half an alt and save the 6-8 spaces. Or even MORE often with vendor/leveling uniques; you could vendor it for a few shards, or if you had the patience (and space!) to hold onto that for however long it takes to get the other parts of the recipe, you'll get 5 chance orbs as a reward.

When you don't have a lot of stash tabs, you have to start making some of these decisions, and prioritizing. Picking what is MORE valuable is easy enough; obviously your currency, good maps, and things like +q gems are all easy picks. But then you have to look at what space is left over, and then decide what goes next... Do you hold onto pieces so you can do the chaos/regal recipes? If you do, that eats up at least the better part of a tab between them, and if you don't, you'll wind up getting nothing for a lot of your rare jewelry because you simply didn't have the space to hold both a spare unID'd chestpiece AND thicket bow. Similar with rare gear... Hold onto something that might fetch you 5-10c (or more) and wait while it sits in your shop until the right person searches for it, or free up space NOW?

Having all those stash tabs means I need not worry about all that; I can take my time with everything, and only get around to things like actually vendoring chaos/regal/GCP sets when I notice it's all matched, I can hold onto uniques and vendor them for far more than I would normally get, and also hold onto gear until I feel bothered to sit down and research the price.

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toyotatundra wrote:

This isn't due to vendor recipes, this is due to your guildies.

No, I can attest to what he says... Since I'm one of those people that prefers to solo so I can use up to ALL SIX portals to haul loot; it works out to an extra few chaos per run as a result, and I spent less than a quarter extra time than I spent clearing the map to pick over the loot. It's made me quite a bit so far; I have a stash tab that now is primarily used for fusings.

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beefnuggy wrote:

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toyotatundra wrote:

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beefnuggy wrote:

We may also want to talk about how vendor recipes affect team-play viability. I have cheap-ass guildies that won't group because they won't give up their map portals. They want to come to town 5 times to haul junk for recipe. That's just sad to me.

This isn't due to vendor recipes, this is due to your guildies.

And the best part, it has a very quick solution that doesn't involve changing the entire game just to suit you. You already know what it is.

Wrong. It is a reality of POE. Many people don't play group to haul more loot via map portal. You say things like "just to suit you", which is immature. I look forward to you making a point in this discussion.

I personally don't play in parties with a few exceptions.

A) Map rotation group to level with guild members, this doesn't happen very often, but part of what holds back map groups IMO is the lack of QoL features that was already showcased to be added. (different color on map for party leader, ect)

B) Leveling\progressing, I tend to not do pubs for this because I have been trying\wanting to do HC, I can't trust another player in random pubs not to get me killed.

C) Pathing, this is pretty much my biggest issue is that people go where the fuck they want, again can be fixed with a party leader color, but then if you don't take the most efficient route you get bitched at.

Overall playing solo is more relaxing, it just is. Get a phone call, ok TP out. Want to go take a shit, TP out.

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No matter how you look at it, white items dropping is utter shit.

I've addressed this before, it simply isn't the case in PoE, so much value can be created from a white item that if you aren't using them to your benefit you are truly missing out.

I've addressed the sort of white items that contain value, some of those same white items, if dropped blue are actually just as good or almost just as good.

Again, what makes the loot filter work is it allows for you to select what is worth value to display on your screen. If you are too blind to see or use the white\blue items to your benefit that is your loss not mine, but don't think for a second that I or anyone else that wants to keep the white\blue items available to us will be happy with any solution that is a pure reduction of item drops.

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goetzjam wrote:

I personally don't play in parties with a few exceptions.

A) Map rotation group to level with guild members, this doesn't happen very often, but part of what holds back map groups IMO is the lack of QoL features that was already showcased to be added. (different color on map for party leader, ect)

B) Leveling\progressing, I tend to not do pubs for this because I have been trying\wanting to do HC, I can't trust another player in random pubs not to get me killed.

C) Pathing, this is pretty much my biggest issue is that people go where the fuck they want, again can be fixed with a party leader color, but then if you don't take the most efficient route you get bitched at.

Overall playing solo is more relaxing, it just is. Get a phone call, ok TP out. Want to go take a shit, TP out..

I do agree A&B will be resolved a BIT by adding the part leader color. I'm partly hoping that they might take it a step further and place a NON-map marker directly over them, too... Of course, as a toggleable option, but it would definitely make group cohesion a lot easier.

And I can also relate to your issues on B. Last death I had was because another groupmember I was with did NOT understand how Minara Animina worked... And promptly blew up a swarm of her minions around me & her. My build can normally just facetank their normal attacks, (manual 100% IC uptime among other things) but it's NOT possible to survive them exploding; GGG very specifically designed that around punishing players for not knowing how to play that encounter... But it only takes one player in the group to not know to get EVERYONE punished.

And yes, overall it's FAR more relaxing. I can BS around in chat, momentarily pause for something, etc.

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I will actually argue that having more stash tabs is kinda necessary to take full advantage of all the means of making money.

I won't argue that statement, of course the more room you have to store items, the better chance you have of selling\keeping\ect what you need. I specifically mentioned chance orb recipe because the chaos\regal is easily manageable.

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And no, I'm not some freebie-player whining; I'm saying this because I don't know what I'd do without my 22 premium tabs, and am HEAVILY contemplating bumping that to at least 40 at the next sale.

You just missed a sale this past weekend. Maybe someone that only has 4 stash tabs share some insight on how they manage, I won't spent my time doing so. I wanted to support the game so I did, by doing so I have what seems like an unlimited supply of stash tabs.

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Currently, I have 3 tabs that hold nothing but currency, one tab each for both the Chaos and Regal recipes, and two tabs currently with uniques/rares for the chance orb recipe, among many other tabs (like 4 tabs of gems, a tab and a half for maps, to say nothing of the tabs for rare gear I'm NOT vendoring)

Many of those things can be shifted to a mule character. I have only heard what some people do, like create a character named goetzjam_lowmaps move all lower level maps onto this character, essentially you can duplicate this many times as PoE starts with 24 character slots!

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Similarly, when it comes to gear, it's a question of whether you can readily deal with holding onto a piece as dead weight in your bank to sell it to another player for 1c... Or just vendor it for half an alt and save the 6-8 spaces. Or even MORE often with vendor/leveling uniques; you could vendor it for a few shards, or if you had the patience (and space!) to hold onto that for however long it takes to get the other parts of the recipe, you'll get 5 chance orbs as a reward.

I don't think the chance recipe is worth the time. I'd love to hear someone tell me otherwise, but even with my "unlimited" stash I don't feel its worth the time to look for those bases. In regards to the 1c items, that is up to you to manage, there is very little I hold and sell for 1c or less. I will sell certain gems and stuff if I see someone buying in trade chat, but for me to stop playing and trade it must be worth my time, 1c here and there isn't.

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When you don't have a lot of stash tabs, you have to start making some of these decisions, and prioritizing. Picking what is MORE valuable is easy enough; obviously your currency, good maps, and things like +q gems are all easy picks. But then you have to look at what space is left over, and then decide what goes next... Do you hold onto pieces so you can do the chaos/regal recipes? If you do, that eats up at least the better part of a tab between them, and if you don't, you'll wind up getting nothing for a lot of your rare jewelry because you simply didn't have the space to hold both a spare unID'd chestpiece AND thicket bow. Similar with rare gear... Hold onto something that might fetch you 5-10c (or more) and wait while it sits in your shop until the right person searches for it, or free up space NOW?

Valid point, but you and me can't answer this question as we've already gotten used to using stash tabs to answer this. I fully believe PoE is playable without purchasing stash tabs, but to go back would be pointless for me. Being able to sort, color, ect stash tabs saves me time, saves anyone time, so arguably yes stash tabs give players an advantage because they can save time.

"

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toyotatundra wrote:

This isn't due to vendor recipes, this is due to your guildies.

No, I can attest to what he says... Since I'm one of those people that prefers to solo so I can use up to ALL SIX portals to haul loot; it works out to an extra few chaos per run as a result, and I spent less than a quarter extra time than I spent clearing the map to pick over the loot. It's made me quite a bit so far; I have a stash tab that now is primarily used for fusings.

People seem to forget that while you may get a few chaos extra per map, its typically cheaper to map (at least higher levels) in a rotation group, you actually save more then you make by playing solo.

its cheaper in terms of cost to group farm high level maps (talking 74 + in temp leageus and 77+ in standard leagues) simply because it is mandatory to roll the maps well with the hords mod and the chisels etc .

but that is mostly because that is THE way to get exp, if there was an alternative or if 78s dropped from trees, public map groups would just die out like they have for pre 74 map groups in standard have.

once you have a sustainable map pool it really is "fuck other people" mode.


when i did rots for 78s , i did not give one toss about drops, because that was not what i was there for.


as for the chance recipe i have been saying this for years, apart from belts rings and ammys , the chance recipe is simply to restrictive. it really should just be based on slot type rather than item type.

any white chest + any blue chest + any rare chest + any brown chest should give you the chance orbs.


fundamentally i think ggg needs to bump up starter tab size to atleast 8, the amount of shit in this game demands that at minimum

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goetzjam wrote:

I won't argue that statement, of course the more room you have to store items, the better chance you have of selling\keeping\ect what you need. I specifically mentioned chance orb recipe because the chaos\regal is easily manageable.

...Though to make full efficient use of it, you kinda need to make sure you keep multiple copies for each slot; after all, RNGesus loves to give you entire droughts. I went through a spot where I actually got 10 rare amulets without a single pair of boots... (that was right before I decided to split my chaos/regal sets to their own tabs) As baffling as that was to me, that's RNG for you.

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goetzjam wrote:

You just missed a sale this past weekend. Maybe someone that only has 4 stash tabs share some insight on how they manage, I won't spent my time doing so. I wanted to support the game so I did, by doing so I have what seems like an unlimited supply of stash tabs.

Yep, I noticed I missed it... I'll just have to wait for the next sale. Fortunately GGG is pretty nice to those of us who support them, and gives us plenty of chances. I'd have jumped on their St. Patty's day sale were it not for the fact that green is my least favorite color. (if they decide to celebrate American Independence Day in that fashion...)

When I bought what tabs I did, it DID feel like an unlimited number... It's just that now I'm starting to see that it's not going to be enough in the long run. (though it DOES look hilarious whenever I start up in a new challenge or race league)

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goetzjam wrote:

Many of those things can be shifted to a mule character. I have only heard what some people do, like create a character named goetzjam_lowmaps move all lower level maps onto this character, essentially you can duplicate this many times as PoE starts with 24 character slots!

There's two issues with this...

1. It's cumbersome to do. You have to exit to the character select screen and back... And while it only takes "a few seconds," when you need to go check what's on them, it can add up.

2. There's a limit to what you can get from this. A character's base inventory is only 1/3 the size of a single stash tab; so you get up to 8 extra tabs' worth of space... Minus whatever characters you ACTUALLY use.

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goetzjam wrote:

I don't think the chance recipe is worth the time. I'd love to hear someone tell me otherwise, but even with my "unlimited" stash I don't feel its worth the time to look for those bases. In regards to the 1c items, that is up to you to manage, there is very little I hold and sell for 1c or less. I will sell certain gems and stuff if I see someone buying in trade chat, but for me to stop playing and trade it must be worth my time, 1c here and there isn't.

Given that I've made a stack of regret orbs off of vendoring uniques... I'd say it's worth it. Perhaps to those who already have a set of mirrored gear might not consider it worthwhile, but for me, all it means is I just remember I have an Infernal Mantle sitting there, and the next time a rare Occultist's drops and proves not to be worth anything, I toss it in, and then collect a couple of whites. Transmute one (as transmutes are worth next to nothing) and bam, I've just made the majority of a Regret. (Catarina's trade really helps, and is massive enough that the daily limit is no issue; she's basically giving you an exalt's worth)

For me, 1c is the cutoff point; if I can't ascertain a piece of gear isn't worth that much to me in the end, it gets vendored. For now, I have the space to hold it... And similarly, the know-how to actually appraise an item accurately... So for a lot of people, "1c gear" means "it MIGHT be worth 1c, but might not." For me, that means that you can't find anything even close to comparable on the trading forums for less than 1c.

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goetzjam wrote:

Valid point, but you and me can't answer this question as we've already gotten used to using stash tabs to answer this. I fully believe PoE is playable without purchasing stash tabs, but to go back would be pointless for me. Being able to sort, color, ect stash tabs saves me time, saves anyone time, so arguably yes stash tabs give players an advantage because they can save time.

Well, for me my knowledge mostly arose from knowing some friends from outside of PoE who also play... And don't/didn't have the money for tabs. I realized a lot when a number of my suggestions for them (such as chance recipes) just wouldn't quite pan out for them, or when they often got ripped off because they had to condense currency and couldn't wait to get a good deal.

The game's fully PLAYABLE with the base 4 tabs... But with the way the economy is set, it's not just a lot easier for folks like you and I, but it also makes doing well in the economy a lot more plausible. I'm definitely not saying that GGG should give everyone more tabs, just that perhaps trading should be a little less painful.

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goetzjam wrote:

People seem to forget that while you may get a few chaos extra per map, its typically cheaper to map (at least higher levels) in a rotation group, you actually save more then you make by playing solo.

Drops on a per-player basis are actually slightly lower when you run in a group... For currency/gems it's easy to figure, since each extra player adds +50% IIQ, which means 150-350% quantity total for 2-6 players: that means that the total amount of orbs/gems you get are 100%, 75%, 66.7%, 62.5%, 60%, and 58.3% for party sizes 1-6. (fortunately the IIQ bonuses here are actually MULTIPLICATIVE, else it'd be far worse if they just added onto a map's existing IIQ)

For gear, it's a LITTLE trickier, since we have to also factor in rarity; at its simplest form, we presume we ONLY care about rare items; base type doesn't matter, since at any IIR, the ratio of, say, rare Vaal Regalia to Plain Robes will remain constant. (it's only affected by the area's monster/iLvl) Each extra player adds only +10% IIQ, but +40% IIR. This results in a slightly better range of 154-450% as many rare items dropping... But as you can see this is still less than the 200-600% total player size to divide it between... However, it DOES keep it constantly in the range of 75-77% total drops-per-person compared to solo, you you are NOT significantly punished extra for having parties of increasing size.

Of course, for players not caring about the gear, and just leveling... It can make sense to group. In a six-man party, that means each player gets a total of x6 as much experience for every map of theirs, with the same return on their number of maps they're accumulating. (since map drops are both always locked to the map's owner, and unaffected by party bonuses)

Similarly, there is something to be said for faster clear times; on average, given that monster life only goes up +60% per extra party member, average clear times should range from +25% for two-member parties to up to +50% for six-person parties. So for rares, that WOULD slightly boost the total drops to... 112.5% of the rares-per-hour you'd get going solo, but of course you'll likely get less time to loot. Orbs don't fare so well, given that the 150% rate doesn't increase your orbs-per-hour enough to hit the same rate you would going solo; in this case the results are 100%, 93.75%, 90.95%, 89.29%, 88.24%, and 87.25% of the "orbs-per-hour" rate.

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its cheaper in terms of cost to group farm high level maps (talking 74 + in temp leageus and 77+ in standard leagues) simply because it is mandatory to roll the maps well with the hords mod and the chisels etc .

And? You still save more over time by doing groups in maps, either sharing the cost of rolling the maps each time or each and every person rolling their own and rotating thru.

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but that is mostly because that is THE way to get exp, if there was an alternative or if 78s dropped from trees, public map groups would just die out like they have for pre 74 map groups in standard have.

That is standard though, the amount of people there that don't have a high level character to do higher level maps is probably really low.

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once you have a sustainable map pool it really is "fuck other people" mode.

It is because of QoL features are missing from parties. People like flexibility as well instead of dependence on others.

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when i did rots for 78s , i did not give one toss about drops, because that was not what i was there for.

That is because 78 rots are for XP primarily, people clear the content as fast as possible. One can compare this to dominus split runs where people don't pick up every rare but only the uniques and jewlery. But to dismiss the benefit of saving vs earning currency from playing in party would mean you only address one side of the coin.

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as for the chance recipe i have been saying this for years, apart from belts rings and ammys , the chance recipe is simply to restrictive. it really should just be based on slot type than rather than item type.

any white chest + any blue chest + any rare chest + any brown chest should give you the chance orbs.

That would be too common IMO. The chance recipe rewards those that spend the time to do it, I personally don't (unless I see the bases, but I am already looking for enough) Chances have never returned any value for me either though.

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fundamentally i think ggg needs to bump up starter tab size to atleast 8, the amount of shit in this game demands that at minimum

Why, I don't mean to come across arrogant or whatever here, but GGG gives people 24 characters slots to start with. People can mule for free, as well the game is free to play, players are welcome to create another account and mule items as well, of course for currency they'd need to level a character to 24 now?