Sheer Frustration: 27 5L's later, no 6L...... Yes, Twenty-fucking-Seven 5L's.

"

Stas88 wrote:

This is questionable. Adding 6th support can increase your damage output for say 20%, so things will die 20% faster.

It is rather 40-50%.
If I add a 6th gem in a melee setup, it is added fire (39%), melee full (49%), conc effect (69%!!!) or faster attacks (55% attackspeed).

"

Now you are trying to say, that with X damage output one can't progress (not able to), and with 1,2*X damage out one suddenly can (able to).

There's a ton of monsters that I prefer to "DpS" and not "tank".

With 30k+ DpS, Shock and Horror is a joke: Break Beam, jump to her, murder her.
With 15k, good luck in this fight.
Not only do you get to dodge several beams, her other stuff starts to add up, too.

Same goes for rare Voidbearers, Avian Retches, Devourers.
There's a huge difference in "having to tank them" and "straightup murdering them".

"

If I have 1000 life -60 all resists I will die to every white pack and not progress at all.

...which is NOT related to your number of links. Like not at all.

It is even the other way around:

If I have a 6Link and a mirrored weapon, I can choose a more defensive tree, as damage comes from gems and godly gear.
If I don't, I have to skill more into damage to have some rewarding gameplay experience (in terms of killspeed).

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

torturo wrote:

Most of the builds lategame need 6L to compete the difficulty.

Two Week Charity Race Results
#5. horrific — level 96 — 5L Animate Weapon + Faster Attacks + Splash + Multistrike + Inc Dur
#4. Shimmra — level 97 — 5L Split Arrow + Culling Strike + Chain + Blood Magic + Life Gain on Hit
#3. Etup — level 97 — 4L Arc + Empower + Faster Casting + Lightning Penetration
#2. Goratha — level 97 — 6L Spec Throw + LMP + Faster Attacks + Life Leech + Blood Magic + WED
#1. Pulpfictionz — level 98 — 5L Det Dead + Conc Effect + Ele Prolif + Chance to Ignite + Fire Pen
Note: Etup had a 5L armour but decided to socket Vaal Spark in it and usually didn't keep Vaal Spark on his skillbar.

Sources: pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/919232, youtube.com/watch?v=vMJ4LTzwSX4

The only way you can believe that 6L is anything but a luxury is if you are supremely out of touch with reality.

Etup used Vaal Spark plenty of times.

Etup also used 4L Arc in a unique helm that gives him +1 to all gems. Geofri's Crest is a big deal, and it boosts damage way more than even a 6L to Arc builds.


Most of the characters you listed were using builds that didn't require a 6L, but at bare minimum you absolutely have to have a 5L. Also, said players were also avoiding certain mods like the plague because they didn't have enough DPS. Shimmra for example would have easily switched into a different gem setup if he had a 6L early.

"

Stas88 wrote:

"

Peterlerock wrote:

DpS does matter to be able to progress, you can't just say it is a luxury.

This is questionable. Adding 6th support can increase your damage output for say 20%, so things will die 20% faster.
Now you are trying to say, that with X damage output one can't progress (not able to), and with 1,2*X damage out one suddenly can (able to).

Survivability is what actually matters to be able to progress.
If I have high dps, I will progress fast. If I have low dps, I will progress slow. If I have 1000 life -60 all resists I will die to every white pack and not progress at all.

In higher level maps you need to be breaking 8k DPS to be clearing at reasonable speeds where you aren't standing there taking too much damage. Because of the nature of PoE's desync along with alot of other factors (such as the fact that most mobs late game have huge burst), you actually do need to kill them pretty fast or they will kill you. Survivability end game is usually just trying to survive the burst end game to quickly get away, instapot/recover ES/etc. and then kill the mob before it can hit you again. Saying shit like DPS doesn't matter is dumb as fuck, and is a tell tale sign of someone who never reached any maps above 68.

...and I don't consider "2 week race results" any relevant in this discussion.

I'm talking 4 month leagues, which is 8times more time to accumulate wealth.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

"

Stas88 wrote:

This is questionable. Adding 6th support can increase your damage output for say 20%, so things will die 20% faster.

It is rather 40-50%.
If I add a 6th gem in a melee setup, it is added fire (39%), melee full (49%), conc effect (69%!!!) or faster attacks (55% attackspeed).

- Added fire damage : only adds 39% total if you don't have any elemental damage ( = hatred, jewellery, auras, etc ... ), plus this damage will be reduced by resistances and you won't use curses unless you have an elemental build, where it definitely won't be 39% at all anyway.
So yeah, 20~25% for this one maybe.

- melee full : if you are not using melee phys + melee full already with a 5L CI .... there is something wrong with your setup imho. melee full is not the 6th, it's the 5th at most.

- IAS : 55% increased attack speed is actually not far from 20~25% in most cases, of course it depends on the build

- conc effect : same than melee full, if you are using a pure AOE spell, you should take that as a priority, not as the 6th support, and if you don't, that won't apply to your main target.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

There's a ton of monsters that I prefer to "DpS" and not "tank".

With 30k+ DpS, Shock and Horror is a joke: Break Beam, jump to her, murder her.
With 15k, good luck in this fight.
Not only do you get to dodge several beams, her other stuff starts to add up, too.

Same goes for rare Voidbearers, Avian Retches, Devourers.
There's a huge difference in "having to tank them" and "straightup murdering them".

but since a 6th support is not giving anything close to 100% more dps ...

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

The only way you can believe that 6L is anything but a luxury is if you are supremely out of touch with reality.

Believe me or not, you are the one out of touch with reality.
Almost every build may do high level content with 4L, cutting down the clear speed and reducing survivability. There was a guy that finished nemesis with blues only. So what?
(a)RPGs are about min/maxing. A slight improvement of damage/clear speed, or whatever makes your life easier, is considered success in this genre. Playing high level content with a high level char, that lacks the high end items, speaks bad bout the player. He either failed at farming, time investment, proper distribution of resources, etc. In poe he may fail at rng processes, which are out of his control. That's what this thread is about.

Not to mention you are completely wrong with these examples, as there are builds that definitely require 6L to be powerful, or to work as expected. Imagine there are players that refuse to follow BotW stuff.

Also, it's not about what someone needs. It's about what he wants. If he's ready to invest time, efforts and resources, he has to get from game what he wanted. In a fair fight.

"

Fruz wrote:

but since a 6th support is not giving anything close to 100% more dps ...

There's people in here talking "4L are standard, while 5L and 6L are luxury".

---

Melee full is a very good "6th" gem when not playing CI.
Around Lvl 85 I usually reach a point where normal monsters can't do anything to me due to Block, Aegis, Life Regen, Evasion or whatever, so I may as well take this gem to further boost the DpS with a sick multiplier.

Attack + Splash + melee phys + multistrike + faster attacks + melee full/added fire.
I'd put in in this order for most melee builds.

If the Attack is AoE by default, then Conc Effect instead of Splash.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

but since a 6th support is not giving anything close to 100% more dps ...

There's people in here talking "4L are standard, while 5L and 6L are luxury".

---

I would not go that far ....
4L is doable ( Actually, I have a 4L witch that clear lvl 70+ maps with a nice clear speed at lvl 82, and she only has a 4L, but it's a special setup, so better not generalize from it imho ), and then for some viable, but for most, I'd say that 5L is just the way to go now, with 6L being the icing on the cake, nothing more.

About the combinations, I highly dislike the multistrike support gem and don't use it for most of my setup ( that do actually better without it, for gameplay reasons ).
I would definitely not prioritize multistrike + FA together over melee full/added fire .... one of those gives to me enough IAS to get the rest up to 5L as multiplier/added damage.
But I guess that it also depends on the build here.

"

torturo wrote:

Not to mention you are completely wrong with these examples, as there are builds that definitely require 6L to be powerful, or to work as expected. Imagine there are players that refuse to follow BotW stuff.

Give me one, I'll make it 5L for you.

"

torturo wrote:

Also, it's not about what someone needs. It's about what he wants. If he's ready to invest time, efforts and resources, he has to get from game what he wanted. In a fair fight.

Then go get 25k fusings and you'll get your 6L, or buy it, period.
This is wraeclast, it's not meant to be fair when it's about RNG, deal with it =/

"

Fruz wrote:

but for most, I'd say that 5L is just the way to go now, with 6L being the icing on the cake, nothing more.

I played a Dualwield Ranger.
Got my 5L, jumped from 9k to 15k DpS.
Got my 6L, jumped from 32k to 50k.
This is a bit more than "icing on the cake".

"

About the combinations, I highly dislike the multistrike support gem and don't use it for most of my setup ( that do actually better without it, for gameplay reasons ).

I think you are one of very few players who dislike multistrike. Both in terms of DpS and because of the "autoaim", it is a gem that gets used by 99% of melee builds.

"

Give me one, I'll make it 5L for you.

Currently playing a Hyaon's Build:
Lightning Strike
+Multistrike (only real source of attackspeed as I have to dodge all physical attack nodes)
+Life leech (100% required with 99% of my damage being lightning)
+Lightning Penetration (100% required with 99% of my damage being lightning)
+WED (the only available "multiplier")
+Added Lightning (10% chance to shock, serious DpS upgrade, faster attacks would be more useful, but I want to use this gem once in my life ^^)

Which gem am I to remove?
I would NOT recommend such a build to anyone who has no 6Link, the damage would be pitiful.

"

This is wraeclast, it's not meant to be fair when it's about RNG, deal with it =/

This is feedback, we write here because we do NOT want to deal with it.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

"

This is wraeclast, it's not meant to be fair when it's about RNG, deal with it =/

This is feedback, we write here because we do NOT want to deal with it.

He did not say "he wants to get from game what he wanted. In a fair fight", he said :
"he has to get from game what he wanted. In a fair fight".

So no, it's not because someone believe that the game has to give him something that it should be the case, one does not make a constructive feedback by saying : "This is how your game should be, because I deserve this".


And you could easily play your combination without added lightning or lighting penetration.
You would loose some dps of course, but it should be enough, you obviously need a good weapon, like any other phys based build.


What was your duelist's setup ?

"

Fruz wrote:

And you could easily play your combination without added lightning or lighting penetration.
You would loose some dps of course, but it should be enough, you obviously need a good weapon, like any other phys based build.

Scroll up, read my post again...
Hyaon's Fury
Wanna see someone fight with that thing and without lightning penetration.

I have to click some rare rock golems with extra life and/or life regen for 2+ minutes.
Without Lightning Pen, this takes 15+ minutes. ;)

"

What was your duelist's setup ?

Ranger... ;)

Dual Strike + Splash + Multistrike + Melee Phys
5L: + faster attacks
6L: + Melee full