Sheer Frustration: 27 5L's later, no 6L...... Yes, Twenty-fucking-Seven 5L's.

Fruz, you don't really believe I'm gonna follow you to your magical troll cave, don't you?
I'll pass.

"

torturo wrote:

Fruz, you don't really believe I'm gonna follow you to your magical troll cave, don't you?
I'll pass.

I know that you cannot follow when you have nothing to say on a topic, don't worry.
That's called lack of argumentation/knowledge/whatever it is.
A lot of people do that ( or should do that to be honest, at least for those forums ).



@PEterlock : I would definitely have put melee full before FA, now maybe multistrike without additional AS does not feel right do you, it didn't for me actually.

I said duelist because I read too fast "DualWield ranger", this ended up being duelist in my post lol.

About the LS build ... you can definitely skip added lightning there, it is most likely much less improtant that lightning penetration.
Are you at least using conductivity ? Don't you have a 4L single target skill for those golems ? That'd prolly do the thing just fine.
I don't think that you have not tried conductivity so ... maybe lack of sockets ?

"

Fruz wrote:

@PEterlock : I would definitely have put melee full before FA, now maybe multistrike without additional AS does not feel right do you, it didn't for me actually.

That's a matter of "how invincible am I?".
At the time I got my 5L, I wouldn't have gained much benefit off melee full.
At ~88, I was pretty much invincible and melee full was a logical choice.

"

About the LS build ... you can definitely skip added lightning there, it is most likely much less improtant that lightning penetration.

There goes 33% of my shock chance and DpS goes from 9400 to 7600. No.

I brought this example up as it is an unusual "weird" build.

There's a ton of gems/uniques out there that require a 6L, if you want to go for something out of the usual, but also to something that feels "viable".

The barrier you have to cross is for me:
I want to pretty much oneshoot normal white monsters, which I do at ~20-30k DpS, which is a 5L full damage or a 6L with 4 damage supports +1 utility gem (life leech, blood magic, knockback, blind, whatever).

"

Are you at least using conductivity ?

Of course I do. How would I not use this curse?

"

Don't you have a 4L single target skill for those golems ?

How am I to do more single target damage than with LS+added lightning+lightning pen? I could use Heavy strike (140% damage instead of 120%), but that won't help too much.

"

I don't think that you have not tried conductivity so ... maybe lack of sockets ?

??? Lack of Sockets ???

. (fml)

Well then I have a hard time believing you about that "2 minutes for a golem" ... if you have conductivity + light pen.
Without any fire curse, my witch which is dealing more than ~70% fire dmg on single target has no problem on big ones, sometimes I need do regen and come back after 5 sec to take the other half of the life of the monster maybe, but that's it.


And I'm sorry, but you could drop the added lightning if you had 5L only, 7600 dps is not that far from 9400, you'd loose some shock chance also of course, so you would deal ~20% less damage and loose some schock stack chance, which would make it maybe ~30% instead of 20 at most.

We are back to the original point : that's just a dps boost, and dealing 1.3 ( at most ) instead of 1 does not make the build not viable.

I was more thinking about double strike as single target tbh, something like double strike + light pen + WED + added ligthn/life leech.
I have not been using light strike for a damn while though and I don't know if it can shotgun, if it can ... then you obviously don't need any other combination.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

There's a ton of gems/uniques out there that require a 6L, if you want to go for something out of the usual, but also to something that feels "viable".

That's the word that I'm heavily disagreeing on ( not to say ust "no" ).
Clearly, for your build, it is a nice dps boost, that does not mean that he build could not exist without it.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

??? Lack of Sockets ???

I was supposing that you were not using conductivity, and then I asked why would you not ?
basically.
And there are also many weird build that perform just fine with a 5L, or even with a 4L for some ( I have one ).

Hmm, I just might have one that skims that line of requiring a 6L... a hybrid summoner that uses goddess scorned to trigger CoC raging spirits.

spectral throw
cast on crit
raging spirits
lesser multiple projectiles (required, try it without and see for yourself)
life on hit (required, can't get health back any other remotely feasible way)

That's five, now the thing is as you can very well see, this way those raging spirits are completely unsupported, which means they suck no matter how many of them are out there, a solid sixth support would save the day here.

Yeah, I realize this extremely awkward setup proves absolutely nothing, just thought I'd mention it as a nitpick: 'it's clear that classic skill setups don't require a 6L, but weird ones just might'. Which is no reason to boost 6L availability globally, of course.

^

CoC are definitely support hungry builds, and double coc builds should just drop one spell without 6L because this one cannot work efficiently enough. Still, a single spell CoC can be efficient with 5L already.


If you are summoner I guess that you're using vitality.
I don't really see how LGoH is compulsory here actually, usual summoner builds don't really use this mechanism.
There is now some elemental leech from corruption, life on kill mods/nodes, some tiny life on hit nodes/mods that can still help ( of course far as powerful as the gem ), Thief's Torment ( weird build means also sometimes weird uniques :] ). But anyway, summoners are usually the furthest from danger, and the few that have seen where using pots + regeneration, or obviously some life leeching speels.

I understand that 6L is much much much more comfortable here ( and of course more efficient ), but I think that it should be somewhat manageable without the LGoH gem ( not only thanks to Thief's torment ).

Thought about all of that, but you know, weird builds are weird.

Yeah, I got vitality levelled, but regen from passives is usually enough to keep minions healthy so I'm using clarity instead because, you know, can't leech mana either... wouldn't really do me a whole lot of good even if I used it, don't have that much life to make 2% regen a huge improvement.
Normal summoners don't use the mechanics, true, but normal summoners got more minions and don't really have to stand in place to spam a skill, you tend to get hit a lot more and being a hybrid makes it very unlikely to also be tanky. No, I don't want to snapshot.

I gave thief's torment some serious thought but the sacrifice is just too much and the char can't handle the loss of life and resists from two ring slots, it would be feasible if it could use a shield, however, it can't. It's just stretched way too tight with gear and passives, which makes a 6L chest most likely the best possible investment.

But, as I said already, I don't really regard this as a 'y you no give us more 6L' issue, it's more of a 'y you make hybrids so damn tricky to pull off and dealing elemental damage so annoying'. Probably a bit offtopic but the discussion wasn't too heated in the first place so I hope I can be forgiven.

Especially since using a nice CoC dagger instead of scorned would solve most of its problems, but you know, I just want to use the damn thing for something.

"

allbusiness wrote:

Most of the characters you listed were using builds that didn't require a 6L, but at bare minimum you absolutely have to have a 5L.

There are no builds which require a 6L. It's a luxury. Period.

I'll admit that having a 5L is a very big deal if you're trying to be competitive in any way whatsoever, even though some builds work decently with only a 4L, so 5L is not an "absolutely have to have." 5L is somewhere in the gray area between necessity and luxury... I'd just say that 5Ls are status quo for the endgame, leave it at that.

I plan most of my builds as 5L with the assumption I'll eventually get it. I don't normally worry about 6L much.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

...and I don't consider "2 week race results" any relevant in this discussion.

The "race" part is definitely irrelevant to the discussion, I'll give you that. The "level 96-98," "with these items," and "short amount of time" parts, however, are relevant.

"

torturo wrote:

Believe me or not, you are the one out of touch with reality.
Almost every build may do high level content with 4L, cutting down the clear speed and reducing survivability. There was a guy that finished nemesis with blues only. So what?
(a)RPGs are about min/maxing. A slight improvement of damage/clear speed, or whatever makes your life easier, is considered success in this genre.

I agree completely, but this doesn't change the meaning of words like "required" or "have to have." Yes, players are going to ruthlessly pursue the luxuries in this game, and if they couldn't or wouldn't, the game would die a little. But it's still utter bullshit to say "I need a 6L in order to handle end-game content."

The underlying reality is: "working towards" a 6L item is b*llshit right now. Regardless of whether or not you feel you need one, want one, or are entitled to one, the process to get one through the Jeweler's/Fusing mechanics is not fun and generally insanely wasteful. There is no "casually working towards" a 6L, unless you are only working on items that you are not using; otherwise, there is hoarding and quick-burning of Jeweler's/Fusings. One hoards to have high confidence of success and a safety net to be able to re-attain status quo. One could actually hoard for months, and then get lucky within the first handful of Fusings. Would this make you happy, or frustrated?