This policy is a reason why the game will always be rigged with RMT and illegal Crosstrades

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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nynyny wrote:

OP basically confirmed what I expected. He doesnt have any legit proof of RMT happening. He simply saw or heard a streamer say XXX, which isnt automatically a punishable action as long as he doesnt hand over the money on stream to receive ingame items. And as long as someone isnt that stupid you will never end up having proof, you will never be 100% sure which makes it pretty hard for GGG to enforce anything.

Are you really going to ban a guy who has spend hundreds of dollars on the game already, even though youre not completely sure whether or not he RMTed? I doubt it.

I would. This isn't a criminal court, we aren't putting anyone in prison. We need to get rid of this "100% proof" concept and instead operate according to the preponderance of evidence — in other words, the standard used by most civil courts throughout the civilized world.

And what you dont realize is that they have a business to run. Who really gives a shit about people RMTing apart from the few players that are posting on the forums? And looking at this thread most people who complain still play, and probably even spend money. So whats my motivation as a person who runs this game to change anything if people still are giving me money, even though the situation is all so bad?

From a business standpoint its pretty simple. A person who is willing to spend money on ingame currency will most likely also spend money in microtransactions since he values the game and its content. Thats a customer you can make a lot of cash with and is valuable for small developers. I am not saying that it should be the case but it simply is too risky to punish every single person who might RMT/use d2jsp. There is a reason Blizzard only banhammered people by the time they were somewhat big already.

"

nynyny wrote:

And what you dont realize is that they have a business to run. Who really gives a shit about people RMTing apart from the few players that are posting on the forums?

Those who want to get bots out of the game because they cheat. People who care about in-game economies and the unnatural inflation caused by botting, warping the experience for all players. Those who understand that botting and RMT selling is linked with Asian sweatshopping and care about that issue as a human rights violation. Anyone with the basic human empathy to want to help those with gaming addictions find ways to return to sanity.

In short, anyone who's actually ethical. As GGG has repeatedly tried to paint themselves as a company.

"

OP basically confirmed what I expected. He doesnt have any legit proof of RMT happening. He simply saw or heard a streamer say XXX, which isnt automatically a punishable action as long as he doesnt hand over the money on stream to receive ingame items. And as long as someone isnt that stupid you will never end up having proof, you will never be 100% sure which makes it pretty hard for GGG to enforce anything.

I have solid evidence of RMTers. Their actions clearly show they only received a warning.

There is solid evidence of cheaters in races. A streamer having fully revealed maps a non fixed seed event?
Check some reddit threads and then check the account shamed on reddit.

Remember the RMT pair constantly getting shamed for months?
1 got banned in November the other one is still RMTing just fine.
And if GGG gets the idea to ban the other one as pawn sacrifice to reduce the outrage. It's won't work!

Since the "No shaming" policy you sadly must go to reddit to find out who I am talking about.

No matter what they do GGG doesn't want to lose a playerbase so they tell reporters "Yeah we will ban them" and rule breakers receive a warning and the warning is more "RMT smarter now"
the quoted reddit post regarding suspensions is even a bigger hit in the face because it makes bans even more pointless.

"

Are you really going to ban a guy who has spend hundreds of dollars on the game already, even though youre not completely sure whether or not he RMTed? I doubt it.

There are even players even not trying to hide their RMT traces and even they received a warning at best. They are basically crying out loud "Look RMT here"


Then there are second forms of stupidity like players having an OLDER UNCOMMON name on the botterboard and using the same name here.
Showing screens of their EQ and linking the same stuff here.
Sure there it's not 100% but even 100% ones only receive a warning.


To get banned for illegal Crosstrades/RMT somebody really must have overdone it or angered several players.

"

Who really gives a shit about people RMTing apart from the few players that are posting on the forums?
...
So whats my motivation as a person who runs this game to change anything if people still are giving me money, even though the situation is all so bad?

You claim players leaving don't care?
http://steamcharts.com/app/238960#All
Remember the fanthreads on launch? What's left?

Do you see players wanting a SFL? Guess why?

Next to no enforcement is a reason why this game has no longlivety.
Sure there are bigger issues.

But even the game would be in a state I would totally like(Be aware, it would reduce the need of RMT), I would become a supporter of the SFL at some point because RMT has no enforcement at all and there would be issues like RMTING PVP EQ after a balance patch.

And I am talking about my utopian gamestate which includes changes in coremechanics such as removal gemleveling.

A more realistic view in optimal gameplay already would add problems like RMTing level 20 gems of new skills.

So why is GGG against a SFL? Players feel their game experience getting affected because of RMT.

"

There is a reason Blizzard only banhammered people by the time they were somewhat big already.

You have no knowledge at all how Blizzard banned.

The ancient games like D1 or WC2 used B.net only as a chatserver and game server browser.
There were no servers.
Even the first paches of Starcraft didn't use B.netservers to play.

The first game using B.net Servers to play the the cheat detection was one written by Blizzard.
The problem was the belief that cheating would be impossible since characters don't get uploaded like in Diablo 1 but reversing D2 became quiet popular.

In terms of RMT Blizzard had an agressive stance against ebay auctions and spambots.
Blizzard banned players when it was in their powers the problem with SC, early WC3 and D2 was that Blizzards own cheatdetection was a failure. That's why Blizzard invested a lot of money on a third party company to write warden.

Warden got introduced with WoW and slowly got patched into the esport games SC(first only in channel then also ingame), D2 and WC3.
That's the point advanced progamming skills were needed to hide cheats.

In terms of RMT patch 1.10 heavily backfired.
The idea of cubing runes was to make runes accessable to other players.
The main problem was that almost all good runes almost never dropped and the good runewords needed runes which needed like 128+ Gul runes.
2003 was the age RMT got popular in D2 and it was an issue that killed the game.

One reason Blizzard experimented with RMAH was to combat RMT and get profits but that also backfired because instead of playing the game, players were browsing the RMAH.


You also have to consider the advertisement power of bigger companies.
While they got more players the scales of players leaving a bad game are the same.

And did you ever considered that there are spambots annoying most players because there are several players RMTing.
The same way GGG advertises Daily Deals, Itemshops advertise Chaos Orb stack now x cent instead of y.

"

I have solid evidence of RMTers.

And yet no one, except for yourself (and the developers) will ever see it. I got a letter of recommendation signed by the president of the united states. You dont believe me? Well...

"

Then there are second forms of stupidity like players having an OLDER UNCOMMON name on the botterboard and using the same name here

Let me see if the name Hilbert or HiIbert is still available on d2jsp or some well known boards. Maybe I can use that as proof that your are RMTing. A nickname proves nothing, it can always be a coincidence.

"

Sure there it's not 100% but even 100% ones only receive a warning.

At least youre admitting it.

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You claim players leaving don't care?
http://steamcharts.com/app/238960#All
Remember the fanthreads on launch? What's left?

What is this supposed to tell me? The playerbase went down after a hyped release? You realize that open beta was going for nearly a year so most people who really were interested already tried the game. Maybe they came back for the launch, I know quite a few people who did but found that they still disliked the game as much as they did in beta? Or maybe there are a shit ton of people who simply dont use Steam (I dont even need to assume that because its a well known fact)?

Hell, I dont know anyone who is still playing? We might come back for the release of the new league but thats about it at this point. And we didnt leave because of droprates or RMT, but because there simply isnt anything to do.

"

Do you see players wanting a SFL? Guess why?

A handful of people, congratulations. You got an open petition with a thousand signatures? Or how do you prove that its a distinct amount of people? SFL requests pop up once every moon and barely get responses.

"

So why is GGG against a SFL? Players feel their game experience getting affected because of RMT.

As a person who talks to much you should be aware of simple game mechanics. The game is balanced around trading so its a shit ton of work to adjust the drop rates to make sure people wont start bitching on day one of a self found league.

You need to adjust Chrome drops from vendor, exalted drops, quality rare drops, basically everything there is.

"

In terms of RMT Blizzard had an agressive stance against ebay auctions and spambots.
Blizzard banned players when it was in their powers the problem with SC, early WC3 and D2 was that Blizzards own cheatdetection was a failure. That's why Blizzard invested a lot of money on a third party company to write warden.

Why do you write down such a wall of text if all you do is basically comfirming what I said? By the time they had the money, thanks to their various franchises, they started to actively do something about RMT. Before that they didnt do shit, or maybe simply didnt have the resources to do it properly.

Well for all the people saying you can never get rid of RMT.

I invite you to check out Marvel Heroes. David Breviks ARPG. Has BOA and no trading (though you can D1 style floor toss a lot of low rarity stuff)

Not a single RMT spam in the 175+ hours ive played it.


Will be interesting to see how D3 evolves with following suit with its expansion.

Its all well and good to cling to an archaic system because the developers and some vets enjoyed it 13 years ago before online was a common means to play...but seeing as two of its major competitors are going back to the root reason we all play ARPGs and cutting out the filth that an economy based ARPG has ended up...and seeing how well its working for MH...they are going to need to come up with something.

Oh how great it is to play an ARPG without global drop rates so that the economy doesn't get ruined...so satisfying. Reminds me of why I play these games.

Trading for gear...don't miss it a single bit...

Oh and before some smartass defender with $3000 worth of forum tags tells me MH is not a competitor because its not bloody and its not cool...game has 500k active users...which If I can recall is about where this game is, if not more popular.


POE needs to adapt less it becomes what D2 ended up being...a crappy place to play a game legit.

"

nynyny wrote:

What I personally dont get is how a person can tell for sure that other people are RMTing. Wanna enlighten me? I

Ok I'll bite, since it doesn't really matter anymore. I had a case like this:

There's a general auction site like ebay or something, sometimes not in english. There is an auction for exalted orbs and the seller has a proper history of successful sales. The seller uses a certain email adress he wants to be contacted through.

It's a gmail adress.

The google account leads me to a very small time streamer with some PoE films on his YT/google account. In those clips there are numerous signs who that is, what the characer name is and what the forum name is. There are fucking links to the forum threads in video descriptions.

All this data compiled, sometimes screenshot etc. gets sent to GGG and absolutely nothing happens.

This is one of many similar cases I had. I just don't bother reporting that because GGG doesn't really care. I believe that big time RMTers are much more careful than that, but there's plenty of morons giving away their personal information because they think they are shielded by selling on foreign sites.

You see there was a time when I wanted to contribute to the game more than just money, but it was futile. Now I just don't give a fuck about ladders, trading and competitions of any sort. After pankogate I see how bloody stupid it is to think that GGG would instantly ban a divine supporter just because he's selling some orbs.

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CapitalPunishment wrote:

Well for all the people saying you can never get rid of RMT.

I invite you to check out Marvel Heroes. David Breviks ARPG. Has BOA and no trading (though you can D1 style floor toss a lot of low rarity stuff)

Not a single RMT spam in the 175+ hours ive played it.


Will be interesting to see how D3 evolves with following suit with its expansion.

Its all well and good to cling to an archaic system because the developers and some vets enjoyed it 13 years ago before online was a common means to play...but seeing as two of its major competitors are going back to the root reason we all play ARPGs and cutting out the filth that an economy based ARPG has ended up...and seeing how well its working for MH...they are going to need to come up with something.

Oh how great it is to play an ARPG without global drop rates so that the economy doesn't get ruined...so satisfying. Reminds me of why I play these games.

Trading for gear...don't miss it a single bit...

Oh and before some smartass defender with $3000 worth of forum tags tells me MH is not a competitor because its not bloody and its not cool...game has 500k active users...which If I can recall is about where this game is, if not more popular.


POE needs to adapt less it becomes what D2 ended up being...a crappy place to play a game legit.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

I'm pretty sure Path of exile is above marvel heroes, not even counting the people that play without using steam.

You can't get rid of RMT as long as you can >trade< (Real Money >Trade<), if you effectively remove trading then of course you can remove RMT. People just buy accounts instead ;v

Trading might be a big thing for alot of people, so your exchanging RMT for the lack of feature to trade completely, Honestly how much of a benefit is that for the population in general.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

nynyny wrote:

And what you dont realize is that they have a business to run. Who really gives a shit about people RMTing apart from the few players that are posting on the forums?

Those who want to get bots out of the game because they cheat. People who care about in-game economies and the unnatural inflation caused by botting, warping the experience for all players. Those who understand that botting and RMT selling is linked with Asian sweatshopping and care about that issue as a human rights violation. Anyone with the basic human empathy to want to help those with gaming addictions find ways to return to sanity.

In short, anyone who's actually ethical. As GGG has repeatedly tried to paint themselves as a company.

This argument is honestly shortsighted and simple minded

For starters, the people in China are happy they are at least able to work to get money. If it wasn't for RMT games, they would have to work somewhere else, probably for much worse conditions and much less pay.

In fact, if anything, RMT is probably the most luxurious job, in terms of the actual work, compared to what they could be doing. Good RMT'ers in China can actually get very good money (relative to their wage in the country) compared to other jobs

And as a side point, people stop giving a s*** about an economy if they see its harming the game, and at this point, they really don't give a s*** if the actions they are doing will harm the economy, because simply put, they don't care about it.

If someone made a law that banned eating tomatoes, and someone thought that was a shitty law and started to proceed to eat tomatoes, they really aren't going to care that they are breaking the law.

Its GGG's own fault for either trying to implement an economy in a game that should have no concept of one, or just doing it incredibly badly to the point where it hurts self found progression too much. Blizzard had to learn the hard way, that punishing players for their own stupid design choices quickly gets nowhere, and just worsens the situation

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

That's only sane if there is a "good part" to fast forward to. As far as endgame PvE goes, that simply isn't true. (The only somewhat rational argument I can imagine is PvP.) Further, I think everyone involved knows this, deep down, that the grass isn't greener... so the question becomes, why are they lying to themselves? Why self-deception?

Hmmm, you know this is the exact reasoning most (self found/wannabe self found) people have why trading is bad and prefer to self find in aRPG loot finders.

Play the game, find the loot, progress slowly, encountering and defeating (or not) ever increasing challenges. We think that trading both diminishes the experience, removes the challenge and basically skips a lot of the game, ending up at a grass-is-not-greener point in the game, over-geared and no better off.

It's interesting that you see RMT in this light, yet not the free-trade system that PoE has.

"

Let me see if the name Hilbert or HiIbert is still available on d2jsp or some well known boards. Maybe I can use that as proof that your are RMTing. A nickname proves nothing, it can always be a coincidence.

I am not talking about an account I am talking about active trading, linking the same items in a shop and posting pictures on that site.

There are several users having an account but there aren't any changes in Fools Gold on those accounts so you have to assume they don't use it or have another one.

Also the opinion on D2jsp even from famous players is really questionable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NH4ScanslM
Read his description. He is spoonfed by his fans but if he wouldn't be spoonfed, you can be certain he would RMT because it's the case on many high tier players without a big fanbase.
On a note he got banned in other games more or less rightfully and a tempban got changed to a permban because he made fun of an action taken by the devs of another game. But here he didn't even receive a warning for promoting something against the rules?
Or is because there is a chance of 10^-23 % that the YT account is a well done forgery?
Sometimes there must be pressure that a company starts caring.
Having influence on a fanbase means having responsibility and videos like that only promote some action against the rules.

Remember Real ID? First there were several videos that got popular such as "Dimitry finds out"
But Blizzard didn't take action till the CM wanted to show how "awesome" Real ID is and within minutes all the data was leaked around the web. Trolls ordered Pizzas, made threatcalls on his wife.

"

A handful of people, congratulations. You got an open petition with a thousand signatures? Or how do you prove that its a distinct amount of people? SFL requests pop up once every moon and barely get responses.

There are oround 200 forum users wanting a SFL! The main problem is that they gave up after Quarls Seinfeldlike post "No SFL for you"

"

As a person who talks to much you should be aware of simple game mechanics. The game is balanced around trading so its a shit ton of work to adjust the drop rates to make sure people wont start bitching on day one of a self found league.

You need to adjust Chrome drops from vendor, exalted drops, quality rare drops, basically everything there is.

CB settings were fine for solo play. One reason I hate OB+ gameplay are making the game not different from D3 concerning trading.

"

Before that they didnt do shit, or maybe simply didnt have the resources to do it properly.

D1 had no RMT it was like Open B.net you uploaded your own characters.
In D2 Blizzard took action against RMT till 2003 because of poor game design.(How would you explain e-bay making Virtual Item trades illegal)
They believed 1.10 would create a perfect patch for everybody and solve all issues.
PoE is in a 2003/2004 state.

"

POE needs to adapt less it becomes what D2 ended up being...a crappy place to play a game legit.

It was a bad place to begin with because several players came from D3 after D3 Banwaves.
GGG missed a chance to issue warnings before OB went live.
They could easily identify every old jsp user by checking the CB keys sales.

JSP in CB was so irrelevant that the mirror given out for some kind of competition(highest DPS iirc) was sold for values of an exalted orb.

The announcement there will be no more wipes and the introduction of 4 month is something that gave RMT substance to survive.
The same way D3 wanted to keep the RMAH alive by creating better item mods every bigger patch rendering old items worthless.

"

I just don't bother reporting that because GGG doesn't really care.

Same here.
I wrote a script browing the PoE Boards checking every user with at last one Post in the PoE board and logging their gold value+id.
Imagine it like PoEhelper checking Threads instead of your stash pages.

If there is an uploaded picture I add a marker that a picture has been used.(This is the way I find old threads of warning PMs btw)

Then there are tradefinders on sites like poestatistics where you can check the excact stats of an item.

I set markers on trades like Demigod Amulets. By july 2013 I had almost 300 identified jsp users.
Yeah and there also were powertraders, I reported one to test if there is an action.
Of course I receive standard answers and nothing happened but a warning for given user.

I reported another user after a Bex claim. "We take steps against RMT".
Of course nothing happened again even after 2 weeks asking again why given user isn't banned I received a standard answer "Sry we will ban users who RMT"
That's the point I gave up because nothing happens.

Chris post in recent action only showed the common taken action in such cases.

I could report a user having currently
90,585.50 fools gold.(6th jan 2014) It's a high tier player. If GGG would ban him that would remove a lot of RMT potential. But even examples with 10-20k users showed that those users receive a warning.

The 10 month incident also clearly shows that there is next to no real punishment(If there would be proper enforcement most users wouldn't even know who it was)
He is banned but his partner in crime is still playing and evidence is about the same.

"

For starters, the people in China are happy they are at least able to work to get money. If it wasn't for RMT games, they would have to work somewhere else, probably for much worse conditions and much less pay.

China Farmers are more like slavery than a job....
Another reason there should be enforcement.

"

If someone made a law that banned eating tomatoes, and someone thought that was a shitty law and started to proceed to eat tomatoes, they really aren't going to care that they are breaking the law.

Oh you know there were such laws and they even exists.
Breaking those laws results in fines.

European Regulation Nr. 1677/88 which regulated that cucumbers mustn't bent(got removed 5 years ago)

There are similar silly laws which regulate how Bananas should look, how much hot pepper(habanero+ level) might be sould in one package, still edible bakery products disposal etc.

For example Nr. 1774/2002 is so silly that there were scandals because the shelf life of flesh got extented while the flesh got frozen and sold as something different instead of being disposed.

And I am not talking about molding flesh/bakery ware. In those cases it only affects the consistency of flesh/bread.

There are silly laws in the EU and enforcement is quiet strict, such as removing licenses to produce/sell products, several high fines.