POE: The Best of Games and the Worst of Games

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illusionHC wrote:

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PrimeHydra wrote:

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illusionHC wrote:

Joined:
18 November 2013
Oh well ;)
It says a lot ;)

I've been here long enough to read the forum rules. Don't be obnoxious. I have no problem reporting users who are.

Obnoxious ? I was just trying to highlight that u should not talk about loot in this game if you didn't beat merciless. Personally, I wouldn't talk about core mechanics of any game without reasonable experience. Getting to 54 is like 10 hours ?

he beat the content 2 times instead of 3, and didn't get the "pleasure" of dumping every little bit of currency he has, into that black hole that is maps, while playing in a 6-man party and skipping bosses that assume you have RMT-grade gear.

therefore, he is a noob and has no right to a string longer than 1 character on the subject of loot.

I like your logic.
and yes, you are being completely obnoxious.

P.S: try getting to level 54 solo self-found, in Hardcore.
10 hours my ass.

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johnKeys wrote:

he beat the content 2 times instead of 3, and didn't get the "pleasure" of dumping every little bit of currency he has, into that black hole that is maps, while playing in a 6-man party and skipping bosses that assume you have RMT-grade gear.

therefore, he is a noob and has no right to a string longer than 1 character on the subject of loot.

I like your logic.
and yes, you are being completely obnoxious.

P.S: try getting to level 54 solo self-found, in Hardcore.
10 hours my ass.

You're absolutely ridiculous. On my ranger it took me 1 day to lvl up past 50+. Solo. Self-found(I picked up the gear that I saved up before at lvl60+). Also if you don't believe it I'd like to point that on my marauder I was in top60 in day 4 of nemesis and then I took a break cause I was bored. And as far as I remember - some peoples reached merciless very very quickly, starting from scratch - so it's possible. Sure - it's not easy with some certain builds. Personally I've rolled op spectral throw + double strike, so that may be the reason why it was so fast and easy.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/639723

Just a simple example how fast it can be.

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johnKeys wrote:

and didn't get the "pleasure" of dumping every little bit of currency he has, into that black hole that is maps, while playing in a 6-man party and skipping bosses that assume you have RMT-grade gear.

You have pretty damn good imagination mate. Actually I'm of of these haters who "whine" on forum all day long. I was always against making party play more effective then solo. In fact I'd love to play this game solo and I did in this league and in onslaught as well. Also I've never skipped any boss. Lastly - I didn't buy any orbs from RMT crapsites. Before making an accusation - do some research instead of smoking crack or some shit.

When it comes to "PrimeHydra" - he didn't experience endgame yet. There is a difference between NOOB and NEWBIE. He is newbie - you can't argue with that. It's nothing offensive though. I don't know where I called him a noob. I'd be thankful for quote.
Basically - he shouldn't talk about loot in my opinion. Don't you think that it's kinda weird that peoples who complain are supporters or guys who've spent thousands of hours ? Personally I've wasted thousands of hours as well and I can honestly say that loot in this game sucks hard.
As I said before - I absolutely agree with op.

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PrimeHydra wrote:

As a longtime player of D2, I never needed amazing gear (Enigma or other duped runewords) to succeed in Hell. I really wonder with some of these posts, whether players are just spoiled. We'll see, maybe I'll get to Merciless and hit a brick wall. But I kind of doubt it.

Unless you do an OP fotm build, you won't progress well in Merciless on self found gear

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johnKeys wrote:

you got the quotes mixed up a bit, johnnysd.

Spoiler

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BldSwtTrs wrote:

Spoiler

1. If there wasn't some sort of big currency sink like crafting. The really good items would cost twice as much as they do now, and be even harder for new players to obtain. How do you differentiate between players just wanting to have the best items in the game more easily. And a good crafting system? I admit something like 6Links are far too random and so is external exalting etc(6 link lotteries are a joke/scam). But you can chaos spam items and alch white items and get some very good stuff. Everyone just wants those perfect mirror worthy items without the effort it takes to make them. And they fail to realize that this item progression is a GIANT part of what keeps people playing the game. Make things too easy and the game will lose it's player base rapidly.

2.In order to have a character that kills quickly and can MF very efficiently you need to know a lot about the game to build your character efficiently. You must be able to clear end game maps or piety runs very quickly. It's hard to imagine the OP knows a lot about builds when his highest level is 56. And he hasn't even come close to experiencing the full potential of loot drops. He hasn't even made it to maps.

3. Random is fun, gambling is a billion dollar industry for a reason.

4. The right to provide feedback at level 2? If you ever get cancer or a serious illness, shoot me a PM, ill give you some really solid advice. I got an B+ in anatomy. You're basically saying that knowledge and experience has no merit and everyone opinion's are equal. I guess if you enjoy being politically correct, you can win some friends with that logic. But if this is how the world actually worked we would be living in the dark ages.

1. I care little about "cost" or "economy". if the game was risk/reward, many people like myself won't feel frustrated by bad RNG, or "meh" by sudden good RNG.
many people would feel they are getting somewhere on a skill and knowledge basis.
getting somewhere, by playing the game instead of the trade chat/forum.
earning their loot, instead of just being given some (or not. mostly not).
and actual crafting instead of gambling, means you're putting your hard-earned orbs to good use, instead of just going "fuck this, let's trade".

this may be a surprise to you, but I'm against the mainstream "increase drops" outcry.
instead, I'm for a strong link between progress and skill.
being "rich" and well-geared, because you deserve it.
earned it, by playing.
by overcoming challenges instead of bot-grinding zero-risk areas until success, or trading, or RMTing.

2. or, you can know absolutely nothing about the game, copy a proven build, and trade/RMT for awesome gear you have near-zero chance of getting otherwise.
and reach level 90 doing so.
therefore level means nothing. skill and game knowledge mean everything.
look at Charan's characters. look at Scrotie's. look at some of the chars of other Alpha members, early Closed Beta guys, and top racing guys have.

3. no it isn't. and Gambling is like doing drugs: a very bad kind of addiction.

4. I meant provide feedback in general.
do you feel you have the right to shut someone up, because he isn't level X or played Y hours? no, you sure as hell don't.
people who saw more of the game can provide better, more complete feedback - buteveryone has the right to provide any feedback.

1. I spend very little time trading, I find it quite dull and I've never used a crated item. I do very well overall. The entire game is about progression, that's all really. If you speed up this process you simply get bored faster. Is crafting possible currently as self found? not even close if you want "perfect items". But it's quite possible if you just want decent 4 stat items. If crafting was easier and perfect or near perfect four stat items were easily attainable. It would be much harder to actually find anything better than what you could craft and people would start complaining about bad loot drops. Imagine if you were easily able to craft end game gear, you would quickly reach the point where picking up items has absolutely no value, in a game that's all about loot. Have you watched the reaper of souls beta? people don't even care about rare items, they might as well not even be in the game.

2. If you know nothing about the game you can easily copy a build made by someone who also knows nothing. Most of the builds on forums are quite bad, the game is very complicated and it's easy to be misled. By the time level 90 is reached, most people have learned a great deal about the game. You're trying to completely separate play time from knowledge and skill. You simply cant do that. Sure there are people who play a great deal and learn very little, but they are outliers and basing your opinions on them is quite foolish. I've never seen any of charans builds, where can I see some? Every time I see him talk about builds hes generally doing some gimmicky build that he thinks is fun. He understand things well, but hes not playing the game for efficiency and optimization. And he doesn't play at high levels either, hell he spends more time posting on the forums than playing the game.

3. Many people play this game and others 10+ hours a day, is that not an addiction? is it not very unhealthy? is it not extremely detrimental to your social skills and life progress? Gambling for most people is nothing like drugs, infact drugs for most people are not what you imagine ( at least most drugs). Gambling is usually a trip to vegas once a year on a vacation and a few hundred dollars down the drain. Drugs are generally some fun at a rave etc. The percentage if people who actually become addicted to drugs/gambling is not very large.


4. I never attempted to shut anyone up, I pointed out that his lack of experience of higher level content made his opinions on some matters less valid and incorrect. I'm not sure how you can argue with that. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion, mine being that he doesn't have enough experience to have a well rounded opinion, thus it has less value. You seem to think everyone's opinion has the same value, that is simply not true as well. How do we differentiate between those whose opinions have less value and those whose have more? Perhaps my own opinions are incorrect and and naive. I'm sure their is a great deal I don't understand or am not aware of. But I can quite confidently say that the OP has a lot of catching up to do. To put it simply, I know what I know about the game because I have DONE most things and experienced ALL the content, can the OP say the same? at level 56 the answer is 100% no.

If your going to keep arguing with me can you please stop pointing out that outliers are a possibility. Clearly I'm aware things are not finite. Comparing a level 90 player with a lower level player based on the notion that a high level player "can" know less is an extremely illogical argument to make or even point out.

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Chris wrote:

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Randomzx wrote:

But why does almost everything have to be RNG? How can it be called Hardcore when skill matter very little?

The experience we are designing Path of Exile around is the experience we had playing Action RPGs when we were younger - the thrill of the next item being potentially the best one you've ever seen.

Skill matters in combat. Skill matters in races. Skill matters in PvP. Skill matters in trading. Skill matters when checking the vendor and knowing what to look for. Skill matters when looking at white items on the ground and realising that one of them has chromatic sockets or is a really high itemlevel.

If you succeed at the above areas through your skill, then you receive more (and hence better, on average) random items. Without the RNG, it would not be fun.

I'm sorry Chris, I'm going to have to disagree with you again. I don't see anything skilled about what you are describing. It is, in fact, almost entirely math. X build has 45% more damage output than Y build, but is vulnerable to reflect. 90% of mobs die in one hit using Y build, ergo there is no reason to use X build.
Similarly, you've got a fixed % chance to roll the mod or mods you may want when you use an orb on an item. You know the outcomes beforehand, you know whether the item CAN receive the affix you are looking for, and you roll. You roll however many times it takes until you get a mod or mods that is/are worthwhile.
Z build is capable of putting out much higher dps than X build, and isn't vulnerable to reflect, but requires 6 links to function properly and does less damage than Y build with 4 links or less. Ergo, you level with X or Y builds and switch to Z build if/when you get a 5/6 linked item that you can use.

Nothing described here seems particularly skilled to me Chris. It's in fact just a matter of having the knowledge and applying the percentages and possible outcomes against the cost.

Skill is, coincidentally, most often identified in simplistic games. Chess, for example, is both a simple and yet very complicated game. Yet there is no RNG in chess, there is only skill between the two players playing it. You either make the right moves or you make the wrong moves, and when you lose it's because you made a mistake somewhere. The difference between two people who have both played 100 hours of chess but one is beating the other, what is that difference? Is it RNG? Is it better item drops? Is it mathematical plotting of all the odds on orb rolls weighed against potential benefits? No, it's plain and simply the skill of the two players.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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Chris wrote:

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Randomzx wrote:

But why does almost everything have to be RNG? How can it be called Hardcore when skill matter very little?

The experience we are designing Path of Exile around is the experience we had playing Action RPGs when we were younger - the thrill of the next item being potentially the best one you've ever seen.

Skill matters in combat. Skill matters in races. Skill matters in PvP. Skill matters in trading. Skill matters when checking the vendor and knowing what to look for. Skill matters when looking at white items on the ground and realising that one of them has chromatic sockets or is a really high itemlevel.

If you succeed at the above areas through your skill, then you receive more (and hence better, on average) random items. Without the RNG, it would not be fun.

I'm sorry Chris, I'm going to have to disagree with you again. I don't see anything skilled about what you are describing. It is, in fact, almost entirely math. X build has 45% more damage output than Y build, but is vulnerable to reflect. 90% of mobs die in one hit using Y build, ergo there is no reason to use X build.
Similarly, you've got a fixed % chance to roll the mod or mods you may want when you use an orb on an item. You know the outcomes beforehand, you know whether the item CAN receive the affix you are looking for, and you roll. You roll however many times it takes until you get a mod or mods that is/are worthwhile.
Z build is capable of putting out much higher dps than X build, and isn't vulnerable to reflect, but requires 6 links to function properly and does less damage than Y build with 4 links or less. Ergo, you level with X or Y builds and switch to Z build if/when you get a 5/6 linked item that you can use.

Nothing described here seems particularly skilled to me Chris. It's in fact just a matter of having the knowledge and applying the percentages and possible outcomes against the cost.

Skill is, coincidentally, most often identified in simplistic games. Chess, for example, is both a simple and yet very complicated game. Yet there is no RNG in chess, there is only skill between the two players playing it. You either make the right moves or you make the wrong moves, and when you lose it's because you made a mistake somewhere. The difference between two people who have both played 100 hours of chess but one is beating the other, what is that difference? Is it RNG? Is it better item drops? Is it mathematical plotting of all the odds on orb rolls weighed against potential benefits? No, it's plain and simply the skill of the two players.

ouch!

i don't even know what chris playing when he was young. since all of point and click required same skill to play. click click click and click.

same spell spamer, same facetanker, same running around ranger, same running around minion caster.

i bet anyone can run 99% of the build in class section thread given the same equipment and skill tree with the op there.

knowledge =/= skill. many gamer know moves in martial art games but doesn't have skill to do that move in real life.

Damn, they moved it to the feedback forum, it's over then, time to let this thread die folks... and make a new one on general :-P

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Yoomazir wrote:

Damn, they moved it to the feedback forum, it's over then, time to let this thread die folks... and make a new one on general :-P

Time to "reroll" x)

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PrimeHydra wrote:

I really wonder with some of these posts, whether players are just spoiled. We'll see, maybe I'll get to Merciless and hit a brick wall. But I kind of doubt it.

I hope you come back to this thread when you hit Act 3 Merciless. If you truly play self-found you will hit a wall like every other self-found player in the game. Time spent farming vs. upgradable rewards drops significantly. Factor in also that it only takes one minor desync to wipe out hours of exp. gain. I'm not even trying to be a smartass or anything. Please let us know how your progress is going at that time, as it would be a nice indicator of how people's opinion of the game changes over time. Normal playthrough is usually wonderful as there's plenty of chance to find upgrades as your starting loot is basically nothing. But, once you hit Act 3 and haven't had a decent upgrade in 10+ levels, you might feel very different about this subject.

You can get pissy because someone called you out for not reaching a certain level before commenting, but hinting that we're just spoiled is showing ignorance of how the game functions closer to endgame.

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bluefalcon74 wrote:

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PrimeHydra wrote:

I really wonder with some of these posts, whether players are just spoiled. We'll see, maybe I'll get to Merciless and hit a brick wall. But I kind of doubt it.

I hope you come back to this thread when you hit Act 3 Merciless. If you truly play self-found you will hit a wall like every other self-found player in the game. Time spent farming vs. upgradable rewards drops significantly. Factor in also that it only takes one minor desync to wipe out hours of exp. gain. I'm not even trying to be a smartass or anything. Please let us know how your progress is going at that time, as it would be a nice indicator of how people's opinion of the game changes over time. Normal playthrough is usually wonderful as there's plenty of chance to find upgrades as your starting loot is basically nothing. But, once you hit Act 3 and haven't had a decent upgrade in 10+ levels, you might feel very different about this subject.

You can get pissy because someone called you out for not reaching a certain level before commenting, but hinting that we're just spoiled is showing ignorance of how the game functions closer to endgame.

There is nothing else outside of Act 3 merciless as oppose to maps and item level only go to 60ish until you reach maps.

What else do you do in ARPGs when you done everything and have 1% of the better rolled gear in the game? It's not exactly possible to make a constant progression of upgrades past end game were there are only 3 acts.