XP loss goes against gameplay itself

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Nephalim wrote:

xp loss is not about difficulty or punishment. its intended solely as a time and currency sink in order to extend to game's lifespan. the fact so many players are over level 95 shows the death penalty might actually be too merciful.

QFT

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Laxinn wrote:

...sensible stuff...

Just give up on this game like I did. It's a great H/S, but the xp loss on death penalty is simply there to make you grind. Some people like grinding. I don't. As a result, I stopped playing POE.

Only reason I am posting here is I got an email about the 23rd and came to check the forums to see if GGG are still a pack of morons (or smart businessmen? You decide) concerning the xp loss.

Moreover, there is a legion of flamewarriors here to prop up the cardboard set.

As a game developer myself, the idiocy of the reasoning (by aforementioned flamewarriors) for xp loss on death here makes me laugh.

There are plenty of ways to punish death. For example, imagine your TP gets closed when you die, you take a max health hit of 10% (guild wars style) for 15 minutes up to a max of 40% of your total health (in other words, dying 4 times would decrease your max health by 40% (10% each death) for 15 minutes).

Doing this would make the idea of zerging pretty much impossible, because at that point you and your party would be at such low health that you wouldn't be able to do it.

Unfortunately, the "Olde Guarde" here are completely immune to concepts such as logic, or reason.

Great game. Shit mechanics turn it into a mediocre H/S.

Reply to me if you must, but I won't be back.

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Forboding_Angel wrote:

There are plenty of ways to punish death. For example, imagine your TP gets closed when you die,

This wouldn't do much outside of maps, just take the nearest WP and quicksilver flask back to where you died. Inside of maps wouldn't do much to people either, Even on my magic find character I could die like 5 times and still get all of the good loot from the map. This idea is bad.

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you take a max health hit of 10% (guild wars style) for 15 minutes up to a max of 40% of your total health (in other words, dying 4 times would decrease your max health by 40% (10% each death) for 15 minutes).

I can't believe you think that this is better than an XP loss. You think that encouraging players to stop playing the game for 15 minutes is a good way to punish death? Seriously?

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Unfortunately, the "Olde Guarde" here are completely immune to concepts such as logic, or reason.

For someone who claims to use logic and reason your ideas are pretty bad. How about you learn to not die in a pretty easy game instead of whining about the low xp penalty? You do know that they lowered the XP loss awhile back right?

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Reply to me if you must, but I won't be back.

I couldn't help replying to your whining but thanks a ton for not coming back. If you do come back please let me know what other video games you are playing that doesn't punish death at all.

I don't care about the XP loss at all, but I am under no illusion that there is a good design reason for XP loss on death or indeed any sort of disincentive for death. Ask the smallest "why?" to the "disincentive" crowd and I guarantee that they'll collapse, resorting to harkening fond memories of Diablos ages past. It's a relic from a bygone era. It is not an intelligent measure by any metric.

Also, people complain about this not because they died once, but because they know their death implies a more constant stream of deaths in the near future -- otherwise they would not complain, they would simply grind the XP back. And the point they are trying to make is that dying repeatedly is enough of a showstopper without losing the entire XP bar in the process (and they know they will lose it), because they will be stuck farming lower level content for crap loot for the next few hours/days.

Oh, a lovely XP loss thread again. How in the right mind can you guys try to convince these guys that this will stay in the game and thats how we like it. It's pointless. :D

It's like discussing with a small child. I'M RIGHT, I'M RIGHT, I'M RIGHT. FUCK YOUR OPINION IT DOESN'T MATTER!

Lets talk about how much baseball sucks instead.

OP is undeniably right. Other arguments present other points within that line, but in PoE case the point in which it stands is the one as OP described.

I remember in my early WoW days how much fun was to kill that Barrens rare level 13 pig while I was just level 10. The light-reddish "13" was a clear challenge of the game saying "hey, this mob is too strong for you". And yet, after dying 5, 6, 7 times and all my armor going to hell I would manage to defeat it, and that right there was the best feeling in the world :3

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OP is undeniably right. Other arguments present other points within that line, but in PoE case the point in which it stands is the one as OP described.

I remember in my early WoW days how much fun was to kill that Barrens rare level 13 pig while I was just level 10. The light-reddish "13" was a clear challenge of the game saying "hey, this mob is too strong for you". And yet, after dying 5, 6, 7 times and all my armor going to hell I would manage to defeat it, and that right there was the best feeling in the world :3

So you can also do this in PoE.

The issue is death should be bad.

Otherwise if it wasn't, why not just fight that "13" and continue fighting it after dying 20 times?

You aren't MEANT to die 20 times.


If you can think of a better mechanic to do so, to make you not want to die, please say so. Something like it costs whetstones and armour scrap to repair your gear, you die 3 time and its unusuable until you use a stack of 20.

I would support that.

But then you would have complaints 'armour loss goes against gameplay itself' 'I like bieng able to see a "13" when I was just level 10, and that its a clear challenge, and go in to fight him, but the game is encouraging me not to do this by the knowledge that if I die my armour will stop working.'


The argument presented above can be used to argue both sides of the fence. Its a stupid argument.



It all comes down to one thing int he end:

In the game, should dying be a positive thing or a negative thing.

If you think it should be positive, please explain why, because for all intents and purposes I don't see how losing all your health and es should be something that is encouraged.

If it is negative, then the gameplay needs to support the ideal.

As such we require a mechanic that makes having died be a negative reinforcement. This is currently an XP loss. If you can think of other mechanics which would sufficiently punish someone so that they feel they do not want to die, not once, not ever, then please suggest such.

So far the only suggestions I have ever heard are stupid. Losing max health? You don't care about dying if you already died, so why not just zerg at that point. Build glass cannon, who cares about your lost health. Closing TP's? Who cares, go thorugh team mates tp, go to wp, really this ones not that smart either.

No no no no! It's not about whether dying is good or bad.

That is ludicrous. It is obviously a bad thing! Of course you are not meant to die!

But, for instance, making you have to repair your armor with loot/coin you gathered from previous adventures is completely and absolutely different from removing XP from the player and making him backtrack all that amount.

The difference is one essentially counters the sense of "progression" and all that times worth you spent upon leveling.

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Forboding_Angel wrote:

"

Laxinn wrote:

...sensible stuff...

Just give up on this game like I did. It's a great H/S, but the xp loss on death penalty is simply there to make you grind. Some people like grinding. I don't. As a result, I stopped playing POE.

Only reason I am posting here is I got an email about the 23rd and came to check the forums to see if GGG are still a pack of morons (or smart businessmen? You decide) concerning the xp loss.

Moreover, there is a legion of flamewarriors here to prop up the cardboard set.

As a game developer myself, the idiocy of the reasoning (by aforementioned flamewarriors) for xp loss on death here makes me laugh.

There are plenty of ways to punish death. For example, imagine your TP gets closed when you die, you take a max health hit of 10% (guild wars style) for 15 minutes up to a max of 40% of your total health (in other words, dying 4 times would decrease your max health by 40% (10% each death) for 15 minutes).

Doing this would make the idea of zerging pretty much impossible, because at that point you and your party would be at such low health that you wouldn't be able to do it.

Unfortunately, the "Olde Guarde" here are completely immune to concepts such as logic, or reason.

Great game. Shit mechanics turn it into a mediocre H/S.

Reply to me if you must, but I won't be back.

ROFL.

This made me laugh.

The result of losing a percentage of your life per death would result in you eventually being kicked from the rest of the party that didn't die, if they so desire to continue on before your timer is up. Also, it would eventually prevent players from playing the game and the short attention span of some gamers would make them leave the game and play something that doesn't inflict this upon them.

Forcing players to repair their gear and retrieve corpses would seem like the best logical penalty, but it isn't. Players would repeatedly die and bankrupt themselves if they were unable to retrieve their corpses.

The best logical penalty is a simple experience loss. This prevents players from simply leaving the game due to time restrictions or property loss. A level 99 Exile losing 10% of their experience is a HUGE hit, especially when they must grind level 77 maps, at best. This is also assuming they have the party experience bonus.

Experience loss > Repair and cost > Time penalty.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

As a recently deceased upstanding gentleman of Australian high society might have said, harden the fuck up.

Oh My GOD!

Heath Franklin is DEAD??

B.