XP loss goes against gameplay itself

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Laxinn wrote:

I explained it to you I could easily play the game in such a manner that I would never die. It'd just be a dreadfully boring way to play the game. It absolutely kills any enjoyment of the game's challenges, at that point you can just remove all interesting mob mechanics and turn it into a number simulator.

It kills it for you. Personally trying not to die to me is fun. I primarily play standard/anarchy, as it is the more entertaining way to play being able to die, but that being said I do my best to AVOID death because its a bad thing. Not just the XP loss.

When I do die, I feel like I was an idiot for dying, and the loss of xp makes me go 'man, not going to do that again'

If I did not lose XP, I would feel like an idiot, but I would still probably en dup doing it again, because why not

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Laxinn wrote:

Boss has a 12, you have a 10, proceed to grind for 4 additional hours until you have a 13. You win. Next boss has a 15.

This is a very viable absolutely unfun way to play the game that I'm being forced into by the game's mechanics. I want to take that 10, pour my own personal skill in, and make that 10 beat a 12. If I need to turn away and come back when I'm at an advantage, I'm no longer facing any challenge. My victory is already guaranteed. There is no game to be had in that.

And this stops you from doing that how?

This is perhaps the worst part of your argument. You are saying that you HAVE to play that way. This is not true. Its not true at all.

Indeed, I have done bosses in the past when I was comparitively an 8. Because I took my time, played very cautiously, and didn't even have to TP to do so.

SO why is it that you believe that you can't do it? I dno't understand at all. You are saying that you HAVE to always be in a better position. There is plenty of room to outplay. Indeed there are video's on youtube of people playing bosses they really weren't equipped for. It occurs often in races actually. But they still win, why? BECAUSE of SKILL in how they play, and being prepared.

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Laxinn wrote:

So what if someone else wants to TP zerg? What's wrong with that? If that person wants to beat that encounter in that manner, let them! They wanted to go for that tactic, and they just had to spend a continent's worth of TP scrolls to perform it. Hardly a sustainable strategy, but it's the one they chose to perform anyway.

Not oging to bother arguing for that. TP zerg is something that the dev's have decided is not good, I agree, its stupid being able to just charge through content wit hno fear because even if you die nothing happens.

Please make a post on the forum explaining why you think that you should be able to zerg content, and then if you get an entirely positive outcome from that, then you could start proposing changes to make zerging an acceptable strategy.

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Laxinn wrote:

Even so, why are you so hellbent that there needs to be some additional punishment for death? And in normal league?

Normal is where you learn mechanics, so death itself is teh punishment. Then in cruel, its a minor loss of XP aswell, so death hurts more, as by htis time your gear should be reliable enough to survive. Merc death hurts more again, because at this point you know mechanics, your build is fairly set in stone, and you are therefore not meant to die at all.

You seem opposed to the idea that 'dying' is bad. Please be more specific. Is dying a bad thing, or do you feel the punishment is too much. If you feel the punishment is too much, please explain how removing it still has dying be a bad thing reinforced by game mechanics. If you think dying isn't a bad thing, please include that in the post about how zerging is a good gameplay mechanic.

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Laxinn wrote:

The result is exactly the same. Most things XP penalty causes are already there, if you can't stand a chance against the more difficult encounters, you'll have to grind previous content. The XP penalty only forces you to do that times a hundred.

Same as above. What things xp penalty cause already exist? TBH I never have to grind previous content to get stronger, my issue is the opposite. I have to grind previous content to get my level up so I can GAIN xp from the enemies I kill.

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Laxinn wrote:

But ultimately, and the most serious impact it has on gameplay, is that it punishes you for not engaging in a risk-free manner of playing.

Surely you can see such a death penalty has a tremendously negative effect on the game?

It punishes you for not engaging in a risk=fre manner of playing? You mean the game is saying you shouldn't build pure glass cannon and charge headfirst into every enemy in the world?

It does not have a negative effect at all. It has a distinct positive effect. If you feel that it is annoying, then it is doing its job. Do you know why it is doing its job? Because it is making you HATE dying.

You just went the wrong direction and instead of going "Hmm, this gameplay is saying I shouldn't be dying and should be playing better to avoid this" you went "I should go bitch on forums and complain.







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And for you neph, while I might agree with your conclusions, this is DEFINITELY NOT the reason for the XP penalty. That is stupid conspiracy theory crap. It is a side effect, that is true, but it is NOT the reason it is in the game.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

As a recently deceased upstanding gentleman of Australian high society might have said, harden the fuck up.

The Ruler has spoken.

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Real_Wolf wrote:

This is perhaps the worst part of your argument. You are saying that you HAVE to play that way. This is not true. Its not true at all.

Indeed, I have done bosses in the past when I was comparitively an 8. Because I took my time, played very cautiously, and didn't even have to TP to do so.

SO why is it that you believe that you can't do it? I dno't understand at all. You are saying that you HAVE to always be in a better position. There is plenty of room to outplay. Indeed there are video's on youtube of people playing bosses they really weren't equipped for. It occurs often in races actually. But they still win, why? BECAUSE of SKILL in how they play, and being prepared.

You mean the game is saying you shouldn't build pure glass cannon and charge headfirst into every enemy in the world?

Stop assuming you're the only person in the entire world that can play a video game and that other people are morons. Then perhaps you could understand what other people are saying.

I never said you couldn't engage in this type of play. In fact I directly told you I do engage in this type of play. What I did say, is exactly what the game does. It doesn't only punish you with failure, it goes to such an extent that it punishes simply taking risks in the first place. That's the fundamental difference.

Do you understand what I'm saying here? Do you need further explanation of the gameplay I am describing? I am not talking about making ridiculous builds viable, I am talking about gameplay involving very sensible builds. Perfect builds, who are meeting a challenge, and the game is punishing you for even making an attempt.

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Real_Wolf wrote:

You just went the wrong direction and instead of going "Hmm, this gameplay is saying I shouldn't be dying and should be playing better to avoid this" you went "I should go bitch on forums and complain.

If developers always had the perfect ideas video games wouldn't have metacritic scores and there wouldn't be a feedback forum. It'd just be A+ all around lets go home and have a sandwich.

WoW Death Penalty: (From what I can remember)

Deduction in your stats

Warhammer Death Penalty:

Reduced maximum life by about 10% each time. Wore off after like ten minutes.

Diablo 1 Death Penalty:

HOLY FRACK I"M DEAD AND HOLDING DOWN THE SHIFT KEY RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IT WAS THAT BAD

Diablo 2 Death Penalty:

Loss of experience AND gold. AND you had to go get your corpse naked. If you died trying to get a previous corpse, you lost MORE experience and gold.

Path of Exile Death Penalty:

Base of time and effort. If you were in a group you miss out on loot chances. In Cruel you lose 5% of your max experience and the time and effort to get to your body along with the loot. Merciless is the same but 10% of max experience.

All possible reasons for death penalties:
1. Prolong the life of a game by making progression slower
2. Force players to pay more attention to their gameplay and not just bullrush their way through material
3. Make players realize they need to actually put points and effort into getting life, armor, and defenses, and not maximize damage
4. Because death actually has meaning and if there was no penalty then nobody would care about it. "Oh, I died. Respawn."

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

As far death deterrents go, I'd say xp loss is pretty damn pissweak compared to what you had to deal with in Diablo 1 (holy shit all my gear is EVERYWHERE!) or Everquest ( naked corpserun through a zone of hostile mobs 10 levels higher than you, anyone?).

As a recently deceased upstanding gentleman of Australian high society might have said, harden the fuck up.

There is nothing hardened about grinding safe levels until you can easily handle the harder ones.

In fact that's pissweak. XP penalty ensures you'll engage in this manner of play for a longer period of time. Why are you encouraging pissweak gameplay?

How the hell did you come to the conclusion you're some kind of tough player for that?

I'm not trying to get in on this conversation but I do want to point a few things out.

1. I suggest you lookup the term "risk". Also, I suppose you haven't heard of "Risk vs. Reward", at all. Risks come with dangers. If there isn't any danger, there isn't any risk.

2. Play a marauder, go pure armor and life, and get a couple damage nodes. I killed Brutus about four levels under him without popping a potion. Life regen and leech from gems and not running a single time. Many builds are like this for the majority of content. Please link to us the supposed build(s) you have trouble with.

3. There aren't any "perfect" builds. I guess the single best one that comes close to that is a summoner. Oh, did I say that? Even summoners have huge weaknesses and they can overwhelm anything.

Double Post Reason: Posted a huge chunk and realized the OP put a post just before I posted.

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Laxinn wrote:

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

As far death deterrents go, I'd say xp loss is pretty damn pissweak compared to what you had to deal with in Diablo 1 (holy shit all my gear is EVERYWHERE!) or Everquest ( naked corpserun through a zone of hostile mobs 10 levels higher than you, anyone?).

As a recently deceased upstanding gentleman of Australian high society might have said, harden the fuck up.

There is nothing hardened about grinding safe levels until you can easily handle the harder ones.

In fact that's pissweak. XP penalty ensures you'll engage in this manner of play for a longer period of time. Why are you encouraging pissweak gameplay?

How the hell did you come to the conclusion you're some kind of tough player for that?

you might play that way. But I sure as hell don't.

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Natharias wrote:

I'm not trying to get in on this conversation but I do want to point a few things out.

1. I suggest you lookup the term "risk". Also, I suppose you haven't heard of "Risk vs. Reward", at all. Risks come with dangers. If there isn't any danger, there isn't any risk.

2. Play a marauder, go pure armor and life, and get a couple damage nodes. I killed Brutus about four levels under him without popping a potion. Life regen and leech from gems and not running a single time. Many builds are like this for the majority of content. Please link to us the build(s) you have trouble with and supposedly "have trouble".

3. There aren't any "perfect" builds. I guess the single best one that comes close to that is a summoner. Oh, did I say that? Even summoners have huge weaknesses and they can overwhelm anything.

Double Post Reason: Posted a huge chunk and realized the OP put a post just before I posted.

Yet another one that misses the point entirely because you're assuming the poster is a moron.

1. I suggest you lookup the term "risk".

What the fuck are you talking about? I am talking about the fact the game discourages taking risks to such an extend simply taking them will be detrimental to you! The long term way of playing is going to be you grinding in areas that can't kill you. Relatively, absolutely no risk involved, still getting rewards. Any other way of playing that does involve said risks being taken is sustained simply because of lengthy periods of time where you engage in this risk free manner of playing!

2-3. Your build etc etc

You killed Brutus four levels under him without popping a potion.

Do you not understand this is exactly what I'm talking about?!

You've completely removed any element of risk from the equation! There was no risk involved! You would have had a risky encounter with him when you were 10 levels under him, but you overcompensated tremendously! You made your number 15 before you engaged a boss that was a 10! Congratulations, you accomplished nothing! And the game encourages this, because if you would have tried the risky encounter, and it would have failed, you would have been punished! Exactly why you overcompensated so severely, because the risk isn't a sustainable option!

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SL4Y3R wrote:

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Laxinn wrote:

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

As far death deterrents go, I'd say xp loss is pretty damn pissweak compared to what you had to deal with in Diablo 1 (holy shit all my gear is EVERYWHERE!) or Everquest ( naked corpserun through a zone of hostile mobs 10 levels higher than you, anyone?).

As a recently deceased upstanding gentleman of Australian high society might have said, harden the fuck up.

There is nothing hardened about grinding safe levels until you can easily handle the harder ones.

In fact that's pissweak. XP penalty ensures you'll engage in this manner of play for a longer period of time. Why are you encouraging pissweak gameplay?

How the hell did you come to the conclusion you're some kind of tough player for that?

you might play that way. But I sure as hell don't.

He looks at it as "pissweak", when, in reality, it's "smart".

Compare this game to the real world. Look at what Kripp does (cliche, I know). They outlevel as much as they can and then dominate the entire act. You can have one of two views:

1. Pissweak, cowardly fools that don't want to face the problem.

2. Intelligent, cunning, planning, decisive players that will dominate #1 viewers, and the ladder.

It's all about who wins and who wins first.

Hahaha. You're comparing how people play in hc vs sc now? This conversation is about the death penalty in sc. And how people play there.

Know your area, know res types, advance. Risk v reward. No one should stay over leveled in sc. It's useless.

Edit: youve never watched a race, have you?