Self-Found (League) [Thread outdated!]
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I take, concerning solo vs. group issues discussed some pages ago throughout the thread, ScrotieMcB's thread Don't Remove MF from the Game; Just Cut it in Half into the cross-link section.
He already linked it in his suggestion which got included into the other suggestions corner so this is a mere optical change for more convenience. I am also stunned at the amount of higher support tier players being dedicated to self-found league. I want to stress out however that I won't take support tiers into consideration while picking posts for the first 5 posts. GGG should decide based on reasoning and facts rather than money. I feel that most Diaeternals will know this side of GGG already. ;)
Spoiler
Not saying that GGG doesn't work for money in the end.
However their strength is their credibility and there would be much less support if this wouldn't be the case. Last edited by Nightmare90#4217 on Aug 29, 2013, 6:20:58 PM
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I'd like to post a quote from someone else on another thread, because this does concern me with regards to GGG acquiescing and providing a self-found league:
" I often find myself embroiled in debates in threads because I was unfortunately born with the ability to be able to quickly identify incongruities in behavioural patterns. As a means to prove what I'm blabbering on about and also to help people understand what I'm blabbering on about, one of the first horrendous incongruities I spotted in GGG's thought process was the following sub-rule: " This mechanic blows my mind. It's basically saying 'thou shalt not grind, thou shalt speed to end-game'. While, on almost every other topic you care to mention, including the name of the company, people just yell at you to grind more. QED - the rule is designed as an 'economy mechanic'. It's to stop bots etc from just farming the first screen over and over. So we have a massive incongruity before we've even passed the first screen. ---------------------------------------- Therefore... should GGG ever implement a self-found league, it's highly unlikely that it will be implemented 'properly'. Firstly, it will be quite hard to identify a specific 'please all'. And, secondly, if they did manage to get all the mechanics right, would they even be capable of getting the drop-rate exactly right? Would they start inventing sub-rules which nullify the concept? ie: if the concept of self-found has never been on the agenda, is the reason it's never been on the agenda because no-one at GGG has any idea of how to achieve it because no-one at GGG even understands the concept because it never occurred to them in the first place. If someone had given it a lot of thought, wouldn't it already exist. Does having a self-found league radically intercept any alterations to the passive Skill tree, unique creation, etc etc etc. Essentially, I could still imagine there being some fatal flaw to it, which, to me, seems patently logically identifiable and alterable, but, for some obscure reason, is there to stay because of some obscure intent of GGG. ----------------------------------------- Thinking along these lines is quite demotivational, but I am still happy to advocate a self-found league. To me it seems like the purest logic to have such a league. But, I guess, I'm trying to establish that, if such a league does come to fruition - and there's something wrong with it, don't pin it on me (or any other advocate of it). Which is the nub of the issue. For us on the boards, it's just a heated discussion. For GGG it's kind of another level as it's someone's livelihood. ----------------------------------------- To which I conclude: Please don't use the self-found issue as a means to hate on GGG. Please don't assume that any self-found league will be exactly what you hope for and then hate on GGG if it isn't. But, please, GGG, if you do go ahead with it, please can you actually communicate the details of it well in advance so that all potentialities can be analysed first - to which such things as player knowledge of the exact drop-rates of everything (and related etc) can be properly assessed and feedback'ed rather than raged at at a later date. |
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" I'm kind of curious about that because I got a very different impression. I read him clearly say that he was very concerned about any issue which would drive players permanently from the game. I read him saying that he didn't fully understand this mid-cruel gear wall but he wanted to understand. His posts on this thread are the first bit of sunshine regarding loot I've seen from GGG. " I'd use it also. Honestly I just don't want to deal with random internet strangers directly nor do I want to get a degree in POEconomics in order to play the game. That being said I would aesthetically very much prefer finding loot over buying loot. The second one of those just seems so terribly unheroic. I don't trade. I don't group. My comments reflect that.
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" Wow, you're making this sound like rocket science when it is in fact VASTLY simpler than what they have tried to do. The moment you take "the economy" out of the picture then balance gets a ton easier. You just define what gear levels you want at various places. Take a look at drop rates on a per-character basis. Make sure you have a 95% confidence interval that the required gear will be obtained in +/-xxx levels of the target. Presto. It is only "the economy" which makes balancing impossible. I don't trade. I don't group. My comments reflect that.
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DISCLAIMER: All opinions regarding Gomi's activities are my own personal conclusions based off about 20 minutes of research into his previous activities. I cannot prove anything and my opinions should be taken as opinions, not statements of fact.
"That isn't trading; that's ripping people off. If you expect me to balance farming against the practice of conning people out of their Mirrors, well, it's not going to happen. Scamming is apparently pretty profitable, but never in a net sense; the scammer is just taking from the victim, who loses value, and the value in the overall system hasn't changed at all. Only exchanges between honest players, for mutual benefit, can seriously be considered here. This does, however, include some forms of arbitrage. For example, take a 6L flipper; he buys popular items like Lioneye's and Shavronne's without links, crafts them up to 6Ls himself, and resells them. Because the buyer doesn't have to deal with the RNG of the whole thing, the 6L flipper charges a premium beyond the average cost in Fusings, essentially a convenience fee for a RNG bypass. The flipper is clearly profiting from trading, but it isn't unfair profit; it makes sense for the buyer to pay the fee if he needs the insurance. After all, the flipper is taking on the risks of dealing with a streak of bad Fusing luck. There's nothing illegitimate about this, and it is a viable, trading-based path to wealth (which "3000 Exalts guy" no likely used in addition to his scams). Does this insurance help the fledgling late-game player? Perhaps. Does providing this insurance help the flipper? Definitely. But let's not exaggerate and pretend this is some kind of overwhelming advantage. Reasonable people aren't willing to go that far past the expected Fusing cost of a 6L. Trading helps. No doubt about that. But pretending like scams are only examples of trading profit, and not of trading loss (trading as disadvantage), is only looking at half of what's going on. And with fair trades, acting like players are routinely doubling their money is flat-out wrong. It's an advantage, but nowhere near on the same league as having great IIQ/IIR or splitting map costs. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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" I have to disagree. Having high IIR/IIQ is no substitute for trading. I can farm for days and days with high MF and still not get anything useful to actually use on a character. Whereas I can simply go and buy a near perfect upgrade relatively quickly. The only thing high MF may provide is the currency to actually trade with. |
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" Oooooooh! Here I thought we were having a real world discussion about real world mechanics in this game. I didn't understand that we were postulating a utopian player base where people on the internet behave honorably. My bad. " I don't think you understand what the term "flipping" means. " Yeah, by my rough estimate it helps about 100:1 from the buyer's perspective. That is to say I rate it at about 2 orders of magnitude more efficient than farming/crafting. It's not that hard to figure it out. I can just take a look at what my son bought me and for how much. Then compare that to how many chromes/fuses/jewelers I'd need to replicate something similar assuming I could find a decent rare to start with. The ratio is, not surprisingly, very very steep. I don't trade. I don't group. My comments reflect that.
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"Then do it. Step 1: Link your current gear, and all currency currently in your stash, in this thread. Step 2: Find an upgrade using a shops indexer, link the trade thread in this thread. Step 3: Perform trade. Step 4: Bring acquired item up to standards (for example, may need to 4L it or Chrome it); post finished results and currency spent in this thread. If your gear is really so good that you can go days on MF without finding anything useful, I'm willing to bet it's damn hard to find an upgrade, too. As far as I'm concerned?
My Fully Solo, Almost Fully Self-Found/Self-Crafted Gear
Build is Eldritch Battery aura-stack Zombie summoner witch. I should be taking more Dex notables than I am. Currently 73 running 68 maps (nine 69 maps saved up so far).
The only things not self-found there are the Perandus Blazon and the rare ring. However, I self-found this ring, which the trade replaced: Should probably toss some Blesseds at the new ring. In terms of farming upgrades... Found the bow just yesterday as a rare one-socket, managed to get it 6S with 50-60 Jewelers and 5L with just 23 Fusings, very lucky. Previous bow (also self-found) was... ...but it's mostly a summoner build, skimping on damage nodes with Iron Grip and nothing else, so a good phys is better. Here's some other previously worn, self-found items: In terms of trading for upgrades... I know I'm not wowing anyone here — my gear isn't OP or anything — but it's still very hard to find upgrades I'd actually care about. I don't want to compromise my MF stats, and over countless mouse-hovers I've spotted exactly one piece of IIQ/IIR I actually wanted to buy for a reasonable cost, and a low roll on a unique belt. For the most part, I'd want to trade for a 6L something. Honestly, that's a waste of time; it's cheaper on average to craft it yourself. Eventually, I'm going to toss some Fusings at that bow and 6L it. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Aug 30, 2013, 12:29:14 AM
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" I already have. I had a summoner - the most mind numbingly boring build I have ever played - with high MF and whilst, on occasion, I did get useful drops, the majority were sold to a vendor. I'm not disputing that MF is a way to better gear, but it's certainly not comparable to trading as a means to an end. |
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" I can stand behind this. "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right!" Henry Ford
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