Self-Found (League) [Thread outdated!]

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otinanai2 wrote:

In the ladder you will be competing with people with much better gear
and not with other self found players.

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Nightmare90 wrote:

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Mr_Cee wrote:

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MGReaper wrote:

Their business model centres around selling shiny microtransactions... of which the main purpose is to show off in front of other players.

..which mostly happens in towns - where you are always "partying" (empty instances aside)

Certain MTX would be not able to be shown off in town. Skill Effects as example.

However I understand your sentiment.

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Qarl wrote:

I can give my current thoughts on self found.

In the existing leagues, there is nothing stopping anyone from playing self-found, and we know many of our players do. We also have players that only engage rarely with other players, trading and partying occasionally.

So, as you can play self found in an existing league, I doubt we need to separate out the leagues. The question then is, are there progression problems with self found. I think there are two parts to this:

Can you play through self found? Currently there are issues with this, especially around the 40s. One of the main problems here is the availability of 4-linked items. Gear progression gets hard here, as replacement gear requires both beating existing gear in stats, and in skill support. This isn't usually an issue earlier, as you aren't needing full skill sets, and can skimp on stats and still progress quickly.

If we are going to make changes, it will likely be on the ability to make or the availability of 4 linked items.


The second issue is, what is the player expectation of self-found play. In general the main issue comes when players look to the top of ladders and to streamers to direct what their play experience would be like. This gives players a very distorted view of what they should be able to achieve. In general these players are pushing every advantage they can from trade, long play, group play.

Often, when I get told - "everyone is doing X", and I have a look, there are often only a handful of people doing, its just often these are the most visible. An example of this is 6-link Shavronne's. If I look at over level 90 characters, in all leagues, played in the last month, well under 50 players have Shavronne's Wrappings equipped. And if I look at the stats, if you want to die, wear a Shavronne's.

We will not be making a league to make it possible to replicate the play of these players. 1) We don't think its needed. 2) From past experience, if we make accommodations to make it possible to replicate these players, these players will still beat you. If we made a self found league with competitive advantages but solo play, you'll see the same players on top of those leagues, and we'll get a new set of complaints from people who want to replicate the achievements without the same investment.

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Qarl wrote:

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Cronk wrote:

When people say they would like a self-found league, it's not as a result of a desire to compete - quite the opposite in fact.

Well, from what I have read, that seems to be exactly what they say. They use terms like "You just can't compete."

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The concept stems from the fact that many people don't like the trappings of competition, but, instead, would like to just play the game 'by their own steam'.

The use of the word league is just another word for 'different settings' and many wouldn't care if there wasn't a top XYZ players published at all.

That is an interesting concept I hadn't seen posted elsewhere.

We do know the players who care about ladders, really care about ladders. We also know ladders are important part of getting returning players.

I suspect if we do ladder-less leagues, it'll likely as part of paid leagues.

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In terms of time investment, yes, that is an area that GGG seem quite obsessed with, but, as it stands, solo-self-found plays more like torture than fun when functioning under the mechanics of an MMO trading league. The solo-self-found experience would be significantly different because it would provide an opportunity to actually experiment with different, more beneficial drop rates combined with player retention.

Unless there's a significant distinction in philosophy between the concept of player retention over time and the concept of making players invest time regardless of its retention statistics.

Largely, and I am very glad about this, our business model supports us making the best game we can.

We are planning to run the game long term, so we can't just increase player numbers at the expense of having lower churn. So, yes, we really do care about our players staying.

So we really do care about things that cause players to quit and not return. So this thread is interesting to me. For example seeing people report Act 2 Merciless as an issue, as its not really an area where we have identified as being a problem.

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Qarl wrote:

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Amiag wrote:

well for starter theres a 90-page thread in the suggestions forum where no one ever complains about being unable to top the ladder as self found (well as far as i can remember), so im not sure where you get that competition is the problem ? If anything people playing self found are not interested in competition cause self found is WAY slower especially once you get to act 3 merci and maps.

They don't talk about being at the top of the ladder, but they very specifically mention the play experience of those players, and their gear, and the parts of the game, and their effectiveness in those parts of the game.

I do appreciate you actually saying something in this post.

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Qarl wrote:

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MrMisterMissedHer wrote:

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Qarl wrote:

So we really do care about things that cause players to quit and not return. So this thread is interesting to me. For example seeing people report Act 2 Merciless as an issue, as its not really an area where we have identified as being a problem.

boof is a very good player and in the 1 month race I was in the top 10 on the 2nd day playing solo 2h melee (different account), if people like us actually feel a problem there I don't really want to know what less masochist players think of it. Take that as you may.

Well, I really am interested in this wall. I have yet to get an idea of why it is an issue.

What precisely is the issue at this point? People do mention crafting a bit, so is it a linking issue, in which case the solution for the 40s area will also help here.

If it is a different issue, then what is it, and does it need a different solution.

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Qarl wrote:

I thought I'd also note, when I see part of the problem is a perception that people feel they need what the most time invested players have, I am not saying "you are all just entitled". I am saying, this is an actual problem we have, and we want to find out why we have this signalling issue.

Chase items, and godly gear and perfect mods are excellent things for keeping those players interested in the game, and giving them something to do. But we also want to have other players happy to continue for better gear without feeling like they are missing out at some core level.

And while we want a solution that works for players, we don't want to, say, add 5 hours of play to a player who was only going to play for 20 hours, in exchange for all of our 1000+ hour players, then it is not a very good solution for us.

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Mr_Bill wrote:

Having read through the dev responses and noting that they don't want an entirely different league here are my thoughts.

Make a simulated Self Found league by adding the following.
1. Make a character flag that disallows trade windows
2. Make it so you can't pick up things others drop.
3. If you ever disable the flag it can never be put back to Self Found. Might even consider that the flag shows in chat and the forums.
4. In the current web ladder make a filter which will only show Self Found.

The other issue of itemization being easier in groups isn't really a matter of common stats it is that a lot of rare uniques are build enabling and the most common way of acquiring them is through trade since orbs drop more frequently then rare uniques. Since it has been said that POE is about making different builds the Self Found characters are essentially shut out of that portion of the game.

This is exacerbated by the players who have these rare uniques essentially advertising them through twitch and the the twitch forum interface.

Personally I have recently broken down and have done 3 trades (FaceBreaker, Menigord, chain gem). It was a pain in the ass each time. Maybe if POE would address their own trade tools so we don't have to rely on 3rd party tools which are a crap shoot if they work or not then more people would get off the Self Found play style.

Anywho, in spite of all that, this is the best computer game I have every played and I appreciate you guys efforts to the genre.

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wrathmar wrote:

I think for the next hardcore league they should have an expanded decent league. Add more levels and some side areas for xp grinding. Keep the chests at the ends of the levels and include the stash. This would give players the self-found league that they are looking for.

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wrathmar wrote:

The next hardcore league should be a 4 month long version of the decent league. They would need to add additional levels/side areas; adjust the monster re-spawn behavior; and add access to the stash once every 3 levels. I would enjoy this play style much more than the current onslaught league.

Long term Decent = Self found = fun new way to play the game.

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ohnono wrote:

Make gems buyable from NPC VENDORS! Maybe you would first have to "unlock" them through normal quest-rewards.
After the first playthrough you will be forced to buy gems from greedy traders. This is annoying, takes time away from really playing the game and takes away currency from poor players - rich players can buy what they want - reduced mana 20% np.

I´m really upset about the current system. Add a tab "Gems" to Nessa & co and i ll be happy.
The current system limits build diversity for self-found players who only trade with npc vendors.
The 4-link drama can be reduced by increasing chances for fusings to 4-link 4-socket gear. So 2-3 fuses and you would be done - add some entropy maybe. This also would benefit the "poor" players since rich players aiming for 6-linking-game.

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tommyrot wrote:

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Qarl wrote:

One of the main problems here is the availability of 4-linked items.

Why not make the quest reward of let's say, the Cruel Weaver quest, a 4 socket/link job on one of the player's items. Or what about +1 property to a magic item? Too OP? Well what about upgrading a magic item to a rare item?

I remember a game which had similar quest rewards. Ofcourse back then we would save them until we found something epic.. Perhaps add some restrictions/requirements that make it non "game breaking" if you please.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

[In response to another user]

First off, grouping isn't free. You need to coordinate how the map costs are split, you need to coordinate who the Culling MFer is going to be. These tasks require effort, and as a result they deserve some reward. The problem is that they currently provide totally insane amounts of reward, far exceeding the "costs." There should be "group benefits," but they should not be as large as they are currently.

After appropriately nerfing a group bonus to reasonable levels, the overall situation for everyone can be increased without making the game easier overall. For example, let's say group MF Culling support currently provides a 5x bonus. If we nerf that down to a more reasonable 2.25x bonus, we can then 2x-buff the overall situation; groups would then have an effective 4.5x bonus (slight nerf), while solo would be twice as well off as it is now. For those truly min/maxing the game, the game just became harder; the game only becomes easier for those who were struggling before.

This is the philosophy behind my "Halve MF" suggestion. It's a serious suggestion to help bridge the gap between solo play and group play, mostly by attacking the Culling MF problem. It doesn't remove Culling MF completely, because that wouldn't be fair; as I said earlier, coordinating specialized roles in group play takes time and therefore deserves a moderate reward.

In terms of splitting map costs, it's a little trickier of a problem, but I still have a suggestion:
1) Set the default number of portals opened by the map device to 1.
2) Allow Jeweler's Orbs to be put into the map device and consumed by pressing the button. Each Jeweler's opens one additional portal, up to 6. You don't need to be the map maker to add a Jeweler's this way.
3) Allow Orbs of Fusing to be put into the map device and consumed by pressing the button. Each Fusing closes a portal, but provides more Item Quantity for the portals remaining; this is visually indicated by the remaining portals getting a more "intensified" graphic. Each Fusing limits the max number of portals by one, with the highest degree of Fusing intensification being 5 Fusings and maximum 1 portal. Only the map maker could add Fusings this way.

Numbers are a bit of a problem for that one, and would require some tuning, but the idea would be that low maps could be run on a budget by skipping the Jewelers and just running them solo, while high maps could be run solo with increased quantity (at the low cost, for high maps anyway, of a few Fusings), compensating for the map-cost-splitting advantage which groups have. The system is also customizable to smaller-than-full groups (2 to 4 players).

Maybe these aren't the best way to solve these problems; perhaps someone else could think of a better way to fix these problems. But that's not the point. The point is that problems have solutions, but running away blinds you to them.

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Perfect_Black wrote:

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Finkenstein wrote:

SFL Temporary league 4months at the end all players characters and items are erased. How about it GGG?...

I personally love to invest lots of time into characters just to have them deleted. How bout a self-found league that feeds into Standard League when characters enter Mercilles 'The Sceptre of God', and if you want to stay in the self-found league, just don't enter 'The Sceptre'? This type of setup would allow (force) players to have a complete self-found run-through of the primary game content and allow players to choose to stay in a non-trade environment or enter a trade environment if/when they want to. That being said, I don't really care whether or not a SFL happens.