Self-Found (League) [Thread outdated!]

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Fourist wrote:

I understand I can choose to enforce these rules upon myself in a current league but that is like saying we dont need hardcore because I can choose to delete my character if I die in anarchy, therefore we dont need a hardcore ladder.

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Fourist wrote:

I personally love the idea of a self found league. I do love competition and realize that no matter the league I doubt I will ever have the time and resources to be sitting at the top of the ladder.

For me the self-found league is a new way to experience the game. One in which I don't have to set up a shop, worry about currency exchange rates, or the most effective way to utilize the in game economy.

The core idea that I like about a self found league is simply the pure elimination of the in game economy outside what I can achieve on my own. The idea of competing against others bound by the same rules sounds like a lot of fun.

I understand I can choose to enforce these rules upon myself in a current league but that is like saying we dont need hardcore because I can choose to delete my character if I die in anarchy, therefore we dont need a hardcore ladder.

For me its a new way to play the game and compete with a what are in my opinion a set of new and challenging rules

One last thing,

the comment about how suitable gear gets harder to obtain as you get into the 40's. There is nothing wrong with this in a self-found league. It is part of what creates the challenge that the player will ultimately have to decide how to overcome to move forward.

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Mr_Bill wrote:

Having read through the dev responses and noting that they don't want an entirely different league here are my thoughts.

Make a simulated Self Found league by adding the following.
1. Make a character flag that disallows trade windows
2. Make it so you can't pick up things others drop.
3. If you ever disable the flag it can never be put back to Self Found. Might even consider that the flag shows in chat and the forums.
4. In the current web ladder make a filter which will only show Self Found.

The other issue of itemization being easier in groups isn't really a matter of common stats it is that a lot of rare uniques are build enabling and the most common way of acquiring them is through trade since orbs drop more frequently then rare uniques. Since it has been said that POE is about making different builds the Self Found characters are essentially shut out of that portion of the game.

This is exacerbated by the players who have these rare uniques essentially advertising them through twitch and the the twitch forum interface.

Personally I have recently broken down and have done 3 trades (FaceBreaker, Menigord, chain gem). It was a pain in the ass each time. Maybe if POE would address their own trade tools so we don't have to rely on 3rd party tools which are a crap shoot if they work or not then more people would get off the Self Found play style.

Anywho, in spite of all that, this is the best computer game I have every played and I appreciate you guys efforts to the genre.

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Qarak wrote:

Add Fourist's post, that's all the devs need to read (also from an Eternal supporter)

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Qarl wrote:

I can give my current thoughts on self found.

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Qarl wrote:

The question then is, are there progression problems with self found. I think there are two parts to this:

Can you play through self found? Currently there are issues with this, especially around the 40s.

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Qarl wrote:

The second issue is, what is the player expectation of self-found play. In general the main issue comes when players look to the top of ladders and to streamers to direct what their play experience would be like. This gives players a very distorted view of what they should be able to achieve.

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Qarl wrote:

They don't talk about being at the top of the ladder, but they very specifically mention the play experience of those players, and their gear, and the parts of the game, and their effectiveness in those parts of the game.

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Qarl wrote:

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Cronk wrote:

When people say they would like a self-found league, it's not as a result of a desire to compete - quite the opposite in fact.

Well, from what I have read, that seems to be exactly what they say. They use terms like "You just can't compete."

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Qarl wrote:

So, yes, we really do care about our players staying.

So we really do care about things that cause players to quit and not return.

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silvershadows wrote:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

They won't be here to play with you, happy or not, when they leave the game altogether, and believe me, they will, because they are, in droves. .

As much as I'd love to jump on the "peeple are leaving omg you nubs dun messed it up" bandwagon, I really would love to see some evidence for people leaving because of no self-found and not for other reason.

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iamstryker wrote:

Spoiler

Here are my only issues with trying to play completely self found in standard or the other leagues.

1) Without trading it can be near impossible to ever find the specific uncommon uniques that you want for a certain build. This might not be an issue for some but for me it is since uniques are one of the best parts of the game and I plan builds around them. There is definitely no way that I could play self found in the current game and obtain what I want for my builds. Charans sword for example is something that I might never find even after playing thousands and thousands of hours.

2) As many have said in this thread already it would be awesome to have a no trading league so that people could have a better time trying to use the crafting system. Its hard to imagine effectively using orbs for their intended purpose with the current drop rates and without trading. Using orbs for crafting in the current game feels bad since you know that you could have done better just trading them for gear.

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silvershadows wrote:

Spoiler

The ability to acquire BiS gear through trading is inherently toxic to gear based games. Currently, the difficulty of trading acts as a stopgap but in a game all about finding loot the ability to trade for it diminishes the value of playing to get gear in favor trading. D3 was destroyed by the ah and poe is suffering from it too though just not as bad. Trading for things other than cosmetic or mediocre items is bad.

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Doushibag wrote:

Spoiler

When the solo self found player looks at the other players with their rare uniques it isn't that they're being asked to be given an item for free. It's that when you play solo you have to actually find the exact rare unique item you want yourself. You could find and earn 100 exalts worth of stuff were you to trade,

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Qarak wrote:

Also, here are the best answers to which no one has answered yet, so I won't repeat myself since these things have already been said:

OverUsedChewToy

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OverUsedChewToy wrote:

I'll put my own preferences in brief:

Low drop rates affect the current endgame:
*I reached maps and played through several consecutively. It was fun but they ran out. Hours of grinding docks and lunaris later I gave up trying and haven't much touched the character since.

Trading is not fun for me:
*I don't have much free time for PoE and trading is not fun at all for me. At all. It's a chore. I payed an exalt fro two Doedre's damnings simply so I didn't have to waste time searching.

My drops are affected by trade even if I never trade:
*The fact that trade exists implies even a self-found player has their drops impacted by the presence of an economy. This is detrimental to that playstyle option.

My friends don't play much PoE:
*I don't have the opportunity to party much and public parties are usually another stressful chore since it forces me out of my preferred, more laid-back playstyle.

My drops are affected by party play even if I never play in a party:
*The fact that party play exists implies even a self-found player has their drops impacted by the presence of this capacity. This is detrimental to that playstyle option.

Multiplayer breaks my immersion:
*I like PoE's atmosphere and tone as much as the actual slaughtering of monsters but trading and partying (publically at least) does absolutely nothing to help that. Town instances aren't so bad to me, where you can just ignore players without gameplay repercussions.

Those seem reason enough in my eyes to introduce something to accomodate for the prevalence of solitary play if my reasons are common among the playerbase.

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Qarak wrote:

totalblackline

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totalbackline wrote:

Is it so hard to understand that some players view alteration farming and trading as a joke and would just like to see more items drop. Running a mule to act 1/2 cruel just to pickup a reduced mana gem quest reward is silly. Give the self found player the tools needed to succeed, we'll do the rest.

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Qarak wrote:

DarthSki44

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I've never understood the class warfare in this game. If you were "rich" what would you buy? Just more items for different alts? You could just as easily continue looking for gear. Playing self found increases the value of every drop, and its rewarding because it has that "you built it" feel.

I had a friend who found a soul taker the other day. He sold it for a bunch or exalts. Bought all new gear and then face-rolled content. A few days later, he sold his gear and bought more gear for another alt saying he was bored. Its because he didn't "earn" it. It's empty and isn't fun. Many people want to FIND their gear, not farm alts until you can BUY it from someone else. It's a loot find game. Not a loot purchase game. Lesson that can be learned from "another game".

When you play self found, every rare matters, every chrom matters(including GBR link socket gear), every alt matters which becomes your jeweler,fuse source. I think for those of you who are competitive there is an appeal knowing that any gear you have, you found/crafted, and you could compare that to what everyone else has found/crafted.

I literally debated(and still do a little), upgrading to an eternal member just to have a unique that gave bonuses while not in a party. Something like 1% IIR per level, and .5% IIQ per level when in solo play. Or scaled benefits for continuous gameplay sessions, building slowly over time as you continue to play in a "combat zone" up to a maximum total(like a timed skill but in reverse).

That being said I didn't want to spend a grand on a concept that I'm not sure GGG wants. I know they love the idea that this is an online multiplayer game and have "balanced" the game based on that. All I'm saying is there is a significant portion of solo players that would very much enjoy a buff to our preferred gameplay experience.

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Qarak wrote:

Ozsmeg

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Ozsmeg wrote:

This whole self-found thing seems to only exist because the trading and obtaining of equipment via other methods seems like cheating. But in addition to that it is also annoying, complicated, takes too much time and means you have to deal with a variety of idiots, morons, children and people that are just there to make RL money.

The Self-found requests seem to most people to be logical because it removes this requirement to spend a large amount of time trading rather than actually playing the game.

Self-found opens the opportunity to log in, play then game have some fun and then go to bed. If you get a drop that is beneficial and enables you to progress great. If not then maybe craft something. But avoid the endless sitting in town spamming trade to buy or sell something. Which for me at least and probably alot of other people is not enjoyable.

At the moment that option in one of the leagues is so difficult because it's tailored to trading and means that progression through drops and self-crafting alone is extremely long winded.

I think what people are looking for is a league which is ladderless, increased drop rates so they can play the game and avoid spending 50% of there time trying to find an upgrade. The most logical way to have control over the currency hording and RMT is to remove the game functions that enable those to be beneficial.

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Qarak wrote:

12013

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12013 wrote:

The bottom line for me is very simple:

If POE adds better self-found "support" (which for me at a minimum means disabled trading in exchange for greatly improved drop rates; that doesn't have to mean another league if it can be done without one), then I will continue playing and throw even more money their way. I do admire what GGG has created so far and I've had enough fun to make it well worth the multiple packs I've already bought. But if the experience for a solo self-found player remains the same as it is today, then I'll just be playing to pass the time until the Diablo 3 expansion comes out.

I don't give a damn about your "economy", and I don't care to be forced to interact with other people in order to enjoy my game.

I have much more fun finding and crafting my own upgrades and being pleasantly surprised with my drops and inspired to build new characters around them. The problem for me with any game that forces all of its players into one giant economic pool is that the drop rates necessarily have to be tuned so punishingly low that the no lifers don't flood the "economy" with their leftovers. This in turn makes the pace of rewards grind to a halt very quickly for a solo self-found player, resulting in a frustrating and unsatisfying experience.

I've got a bunch of characters, a couple in the 50's and 60's, and two that I've pushed to 77 and 80, but with most of the rest stalled in the 40's. Playing solo self-found through Normal is fine, while you're still finding regular upgrades. The pace begins to slow down sharply in Cruel though, such that it's not uncommon to go multiple levels without finding an upgrade. It slows to a crawl in Merciless though, to where it starts to feel pointless to even keep playing. I leveled from 70 to 80 literally without seeing a single upgrade, but I pushed on thinking maybe I just had bad luck and it would get better in maps. Instead, I can't even fill my inventory with yellows after clearing a map, and I know before I even look that 99.9% of them aren't worth looking at.

The result is that you're forced into trading if you even want to improve your equipment at all, and "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." - Yoda

Once you take that shortcut and trade for items, you've made it exponentially more unlikely that you will ever find an upgrade to your equipment, and nothing short of a miracle drop will ever be satisfying again. Don't kid yourselves that POE is any better than Diablo 3 in this regard just because POE doesn't have an auction house. An auction house is simply more convenient and accelerates this corrupting influence. Every time you ask for the trading experience to be improved, what you're really asking for is for the item finding process to become less fulfilling.

Now, paid leagues might be a solution, assuming 1) they're coming out any time soon, 2) they aren't priced out of the reach of solo players, and 3) you can raise drop rates to acceptable levels. I haven't heard anything encouraging about them to know whether they'll fulfill my expectations though.


I have a dream, that one day a character I'm leveling up will randomly find an exalted orb, I'll use it right then on a piece of equipment I'm wearing without feeling like I wasted it, and I will not be judged for my chosen play style but for how much fun I'm having.

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Subversus wrote:

Spoiler

Why is this a surprise? If a player chooses to only use gear they find, they -should not- expect to be on par with players who trade. Even if a self-found league existed with something ridiculous like 1000% increased drop rates, you would still not be as well-geared as players who trade for gear in the normal leagues,, even if you play significantly more.

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tobes111 wrote:

Spoiler

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silvershadows wrote:

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tobes111 wrote:

the thing about new leagues is you are splitting the already small population

it could be the death of POE if they implement a THIRD league permanently

just saying.

If splitting the community is a bad thing then they should get rid of HC or standard.... its already created a huge amount of divisiveness between the elitists and the casuals. HC exists as an alternative for those who want it but those who are looking for a different kind of alternative are given a big middle finger by way too many people in these forums.

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only <10% or so ofo the population want self found

THIS IS NOT A FREAKING SOLO GAME

people like trading

well most people

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ephetat wrote:

Spoiler

For what it's worth, I think you're misinterpreting what people feel they need. The thing that sets the most time-investing players/top streamers apart is not their objective power level. It is that they are able to actually set and work towards goals in this game. They are able to leverage the creative possibilities of this game to the fullest.

How do they do this?

1) They have enough currency to brute force their way though the intense RNG of the crafting system and get actual results -- this includes something as simple as getting the necessary off-colors, (no) thanks to punishing socket-color bias. While the self-found player feels the need to hoard their currency for trading simply because the scarcity makes trading the superior option for even the most trading-averse player, the top player/no-lifer/streamer has no such constraints owing to both sheer playtime and social networking.

2) Partially connected to 1), they have no shortage of end-game maps to roll and/or play.

3a) A solo, self-found player could conceivably play the game for a hundred hours and never see a drop-only -- itself a very poor idea -- skill gem like Chain or Multistrike drop, never mind any added quality bonus. Again, the top player will have no such complaint to make. This also applies for 5-link items (6-links are not necessary, so they are offered a reprieve).

3b) This also applies to those unfortunate "rare" uniques that also happen to be build-enablers. Examples such as Soul Taker and Shavronne's have been discussed at length.

Also, bonus poke: Qarl, the fact that you're giving the example of Shavronne's usage in your initial counterpoint is itself the admission that you see nothing out-of-place with a build-enabler like Shavronne's being considered a "chase rare" -- this is very troubling.

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Fourist wrote:

Spoiler

I personally love the idea of a self found league. I do love competition and realize that no matter the league I doubt I will ever have the time and resources to be sitting at the top of the ladder.

For me the self-found league is a new way to experience the game. One in which I don't have to set up a shop, worry about currency exchange rates, or the most effective way to utilize the in game economy.

The core idea that I like about a self found league is simply the pure elimination of the in game economy outside what I can achieve on my own. The idea of competing against others bound by the same rules sounds like a lot of fun.

I understand I can choose to enforce these rules upon myself in a current league but that is like saying we dont need hardcore because I can choose to delete my character if I die in anarchy, therefore we dont need a hardcore ladder.

For me its a new way to play the game and compete with what are in my opinion a set of new and challenging rules

One last thing,

the comment about how suitable gear gets harder to obtain as you get into the 40's. There is nothing wrong with this in a self-found league. It is part of what creates the challenge that the player will ultimately have to decide how to overcome to move forward.