Self-Found (League) [Thread outdated!]

I have a feeling that players like Sl4y3r here will be very happy to see the introduction of guilds, because this will allow players to create a closed self-found environment themselves.

Another reason to consider SF/BOE.

It does not make economic sense to craft before end game. When open beta dropped I decided I encountered difficult content. I knew at the time I was better off trading or grinding, but boy did it make for a much better playing experience and item progression. Admittedly I was usually under leveled, but that added to the fun.

GGG made a fun crafting system but it almost never makes economic sense to use.

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Veta1991 wrote:

Another reason to consider SF/BOE.

It does not make economic sense to craft before end game. When open beta dropped I decided to play without that in mind and craft as I encountered difficult content. I knew at the time I was better off trading or grinding, but boy did it make for a much better item progression and playing experience. Admittedly I was usually under leveled, but that added to the fun.

GGG made a fun crafting system but it almost never makes economic sense to use.

If you're playing self-found, then why does anything economic factor in?

I've progressed through the game so far in the way you describe, burning some orbs on crafting whenever I hit some kind of wall. It really doesn't matter to me that I could've spent the time maximizing the value of the orbs that I burned by shopping around for something better than my craft, or that some other player is now slightly richer than me because I crafted.

If these things bother you now, then you have to ask yourself: would a league where your only option is to craft or grind really improve your experience? Knowing that, while it's now the most efficient means of item progression, it remains inherently inefficient despite the good feeling of finding or crafting it yourself?

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Subversus wrote:

would a league where your only option is to craft or grind really improve your experience?

Yes. How you must play in order to play optimally matters. That's why we have a softcore league and a hardcore league, for players who care about dying. If the way to play optimally involves doing something then your competitive player base will be forced into doing that something and if it isn't fun they will leave.

Some of us are competitive and don't like playing the trading game. Just as some of us are competitive and don't care about dying. The better question is why you are against a SF/BOE league. How would it affect you, do you have a vested interest against it?

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Subversus wrote:

I have a feeling that players like Sl4y3r here will be very happy to see the introduction of guilds, because this will allow players to create a closed self-found environment themselves.

I've wanted guilds for a LONG LONG time. Although not for this reason.

And to veta, it will NEVER make "economic sense" to craft vs buy. This is flat out impossible.

This is what I don't understand about this whole topic. People say they want SFL so they can progress without trading, which you already can btw. People say they want it to increase competition. Fine, I agree on this one. However, at the end of the day, there will be hav's and hav'nots. The hav'nots will complain again that x isn't low or high enough.

If you truly wanted a SFL, you wouldn't be saying things like, "It doesn't make economic sense to craft". Since this is a moot point for SFL anyways.

Too much flip flopping from a bunch of people who all think they want the same thing, yet for many different reasons. Some of these reasons don't even make sense anyways.

I'm all for a no-trade league. I'm against increasing orb drop rates by xxxxxxxx%.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

And to veta, it will NEVER make "economic sense" to craft vs buy. This is flat out impossible.

It's actually beyond that.

Even for self-found, it never makes sense to craft vs hoard. You could use your Chaos Orb on that ilvl 38 Grove Bow you just found, or you could hoard it and many, many play-hours from now use it on an ilvl 78 chest. Which one is better?

Simply put, orbs are like annuities, and using your orbs is like calling JG Wentworth. It might indeed be a lot of fun, but from a min/max perspective it's a trap that loses you money, until/unless you've reached the very end of the endgame.

The only way that rational people call JG Wentworth is because they have no other choice. In the same way, the only way that players actually use orbs, prior to the endgame cash-in, is that they are desperate: the content is too hard, they don't have an upgrade, it's too hard to find one on the market (this is usually true for difficulties in Cruel and early Merciless, and becomes nearly moot once you get high enough clvl to use items from Merci Docks, because Merci Docks is farmed like none other). Even then, as soon as they get something passable — not awesome, just passable — they go right back to hoarding.

You want players to actually use their orbs on items? The answer isn't making the game easier, it's making it harder; it's not about increasing drop rates, it's decreasing them, especially with gear. Imagine if your current chest piece simply wasn't there. You might actually burn some orbs then. I guess increasing orb droprates, as compensation for the lowered gear droprates, would be an appropriate compensation.

It's not crafting vs trading, people. It's crafting vs (gear) farming.

Rational people call JG Wentworth when they dont have a choice. If you play HC, and you need an upgrade now. You might just use those orbs. If using a chaos or alch etc, helps save your life and increases progression rate.

Its worth it.

Edit. I realize you said this, but felt the need to highlight its importance. Its not bad to use them. Just be smart about it. Theres nothing wrong with that.

people want self found so it is known they have self found league and have their own global chat and such. i don't think it would be that hard to add another league...

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SL4Y3R wrote:

And those who want SFL + high drop rates. Which I personally do not want to see.

I agree about drops. The game is already in a state in which the path of least resistance doubles as the path of greatest reward. Such a thing would continue this trend.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It's not crafting vs trading, people. It's crafting vs (gear) farming.

Good posts from you SMB. As I see it there are 3 routes to upgrading items.

1) Farming Gear - Investment of Time
2) Crafting - Investment of Currency
3) Trading - Investment of (Less) Time or Currency (minus trade value of obsolete/used gear)

Eliminating trade alone doesn't force players to choose 2 but it does make the choice more direct. Do I spend time farming or do I invest currency which itself takes time to find. The opportunity cost is time. So if all that matters is time, the question then becomes what is the most efficient use of my time. Ideally it would come down to RNG. It does not. Things are further complicated by the diminishing returns on farming currency at higher levels which contribute to the 'Mapping and End Game Crafting' opportunity cost of currency.

Gear=Time*RNG, does not diminish
Currency = Time*RNG, diminishes at higher levels
Opportunity Cost of Currency = Mapping and End Game Crafting

Because the time cost of currency decreases relative to the time cost of gear the opportunity cost of currency becomes greater at higher levels. I would make a few suggestions on top of a self found or bind-on-equip ruleset. More consistent currency/gear drop rates from level 1 to level 100, pending the level of content and the availability of IIQ/IIR. I mention IIQ/IIR because the facility to stack them at a higher level, especially in a group, could discourage rerolling a new character. Gear drop rates should also be tempered at higher levels as far as I know they are not, and that contributes to the increasing opportunity cost of currency. In this way we will have a consistent time opportunity cost for crafting versus finding gear, no matter how far you are into the game.

That's not the whole story though. Because currency directly affects the quantity and rarity of loot from maps it must be as valuable as the total improvement in loot. That is difficult to qualify but given that you can choose what you craft and you cannot choose what items drop that opportunity cost is more balance under a SF/BOE ruleset.

For example, if I am looking for a bow upgrade and I Chaos a map then any rare thicket bows or currency I otherwise would not have found are the opportunity cost of that Chaos orb versus using it to craft. Furthermore, if that map drops any maps that otherwise would not have dropped then any thicket bows that subsequent map drops are a function of the original Chaos. If I use an additional Chaos, perhaps to roll Maze, then its opportunity cost would be the additional bows, currency and maps that would not have been found after using just one Chaos. The second Chaos has significantly smaller economic benefit, but properties like Maze are highly desirable and make up for the increased opportunity cost. The probability costs could be calculated but the maths are complicated. I would suggest making Maze or other such highly desirable map properties implicit or rebalanced with currency opportunity cost in mind.

Under the current system a single currency is always better spent on maps versus crafts. Which means the time cost of spending currency on a lvl 38 Grove Bow is as long as it takes to find as many Thicket Bows, currency and maps you would have otherwise not found if that currency was spent on a map instead. Ergo the opportunity cost of crafting lvl 38 Grove Bow = Time Cost of Finding Late Game Gear without spending said currency on map.

That's not necessarily a bad thing if we had more currency than we needed to spend on maps. Rebalancing highly desirable map mods will abate the problem but it would be good if currency was common enough that the opportunity cost of getting desirable map mods diminished greatly with each marginal currency spent. In that way players would be encouraged to use a minimal amount of currency on maps and the rest on crafting (or trading).

I also recognize the solution I described hinges greatly on balanced drop rates. Finding the right drop rates would be a trial and error process best suited for small custom leagues.

Lastly the difference between Self-Found and Bind-on-Equip is that the latter allows for upgrades via method (3) but removes the value of obsolete or used gear, thus not being overwhelmingly the right choice against methods (1) or (2). However, under a BOE ruleset there's still no reason to Chaos an ilvl38 Grove Bow if somebody found a good ilvl38 Grove Bow and saved it to trade. BOE does however mean that very powerful used gear can no longer be arbitraged and would mean methods (1) and (2) are highly viable for end game itemization.


Summary:
### - Self Found or Bind-on-Equip ruleset
### - Consistent gear and currency drop rates regardless of game progress, but accounting for the relative level of content and availability of IIQ/IIR at that level.
### - Rebalance highly desirable map mods like 'Maze' with crafting currency opportunity cost in mind, this should lead to a diminished economic benefit for spending additional currency on maps to get their mods just right
### - Balance crafting currency drop rates such that we have more currency than maps on which to spend, assuming the benefit of spending additional marginal currency on a map is greatly diminished
### - Custom Leagues with control over drops rates would be ideal to find a happy drop rate balance.