Self-Found (League) [Thread outdated!]

I just....really do not understand how a self-found league would be any different than just not trading in standard...

I really dont..

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sempuken wrote:

I just....really do not understand how a self-found league would be any different than just not trading in standard...

I really dont..

You are right you don't get it. It's not different than allowing cheating, but hey, since you don't use cheats who cares.

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sempuken wrote:

I just....really do not understand how a self-found league would be any different than just not trading in standard...

I really dont..

The reasoning is the same behind why there's a softcore and hardcore league. If you play not to die in a softcore league it will put you at a disadvantage to players who leverage that they can die. In the same way, if you play self-found or without arbitrage it will put you at a disadvantage to players who trade and exploit arbitrage opportunity.

What it comes down to is how you must play to play optimally. Trading and arbitrage is part of optimal play on standard leagues. Good lucky being competitive without it.

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Veta1991 wrote:

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sempuken wrote:

I just....really do not understand how a self-found league would be any different than just not trading in standard...

I really dont..

The reasoning is the same behind why there's a softcore and hardcore league. If you play not to die in a softcore league it will put you at a disadvantage to players who leverage that they can die. In the same way, if you play self-found or without arbitrage it will put you at a disadvantage to players who trade and exploit arbitrage opportunity.

What it comes down to is how you must play to play optimally. Trading and arbitrage is part of optimal play on standard leagues. Good lucky being competitive without it.

If you want to play completely self-found, then the argument you've just presented is silly, considering that any competition would boil down to luck with RNG. This is a very volatile recipe for competition, because even if they buffed drop and crafting rates 1000%, some people are still gonna get a lot more lucky with RNG and smash you.

Your points about arbitrage are not based on the reality of the game. Trading doesn't have to be staring at and cycling through trade chat for hours. Anyone who's taken 10 minutes to educate themselves about the tools for trade that are already available (forums/xyz) can spend the next 10 minutes finding exactly what they're looking for.

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Subversus wrote:

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Veta1991 wrote:

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sempuken wrote:

I just....really do not understand how a self-found league would be any different than just not trading in standard...

I really dont..

The reasoning is the same behind why there's a softcore and hardcore league. If you play not to die in a softcore league it will put you at a disadvantage to players who leverage that they can die. In the same way, if you play self-found or without arbitrage it will put you at a disadvantage to players who trade and exploit arbitrage opportunity.

What it comes down to is how you must play to play optimally. Trading and arbitrage is part of optimal play on standard leagues. Good lucky being competitive without it.

If you want to play completely self-found, then the argument you've just presented is silly, considering that any competition would boil down to luck with RNG. This is a very volatile recipe for competition, because even if they buffed drop and crafting rates 1000%, some people are still gonna get a lot more lucky with RNG and smash you.

Your points about arbitrage are not based on the reality of the game. Trading doesn't have to be staring at and cycling through trade chat for hours. Anyone who's taken 10 minutes to educate themselves about the tools for trade that are already available (forums/xyz) can spend the next 10 minutes finding exactly what they're looking for.

Sure, that's how trading works. Find what you're looking for or recognize something that's underpriced. Turn around and sell that something for a profit. Voila, you've accomplished more than you would have in the same time playing. That's not a fun dynamic. But it is a dynamic that affects competitive play.

I'd rather that wasn't a factor. RNG is RNG, that's fine. Nobody is complaining about RNG and you are creating a strawman if you suggest mitigating arbitrage and trading would somehow undermine competitive play. Arbitrage and trading doesn't separate good players from great players. POE is more than trading.

Edit: For the record I would be for any kind of anti-arbitrage rule set, i.e. bind-on-equip.

Of course PoE is more than trading, and I would venture to say that most players barely participate in the market as it is.

Thing is, that little bit of trading is what allows players who wish to do so to circumnavigate the RNG inherent in the game somewhat, allowing top-tier players to compete based more on how they play the game rather than how the game plays them.

Take that away, and your competition in question involves too much luck to be considered skill-based.

Also, and this has already been said in this thread, the players who are beating you now, will still be beating you in the absence of whatever game mechanics you deem unnecessary. These players know the market and how to play it, but they also know how to build a character and play the game well, which will always be the biggest factor in the ladders next to time invested.

The crux of the discussion is where your items come from. Playing optimally in standard leagues means your items will come from other players via trading. Playing optimally in SF/BOE means your items will either come from what you kill, what your party kills, or, pending the rules, what someone else killed and never equipped. Such rulesets slow item progression which many feel breeds a better experience. Slower item progression also means more expensive item progression and an appreciation for powerful characters as marginal improvement becomes all the more expensive and item wealth less fungible. I suspect more expensive marginal improvement would also lead to greater build diversity.

GGG's logic is "Trading is an essential part of the game" so why didn't you added gold instead of orbs that everyone uses like gold anyway. Only a small % of people actually spend orbs to craft. No Qarl, I'm not talking about people spending a few alchemy or a few chaos. I'm talking about exalts regals etc."

Also, if I had a say about the staff, Qarl shouldn't be the person to explain people what is what. Instead if explaining or discussing logically he picks out little words on the posts he doesn't like and writes a reply based on those words, thus making himself look stupid. He is also rude and seems like he feels offended when people tries to discuss something with him.

Qarl's ridiculous reasons;

-"Streamers will always be better then you"
Who cares???

-"Issue with 4L items around 40s"
Seriously???

About the "You can play SF on current leagues";
1- Playing SF is not rewarding with orbs' default drop rate.
2- There is no point when you are playing SF, working hard to craft your own gear etc, if then you see a player invested the same amount of time as you in his/her char that has much better gear because she just bought them with the same amount of orbs you had.

Now what part of this GGG doesn't understand. That is what I can't understand.

Even SFL is a good or a bad idea. There is no denying that there is a huge demand for it, so why not make a test drive for it. Make the league for lets say, 1 to 3 months of test period. To all those supporters and players, seems to me, you atleast owe them that.

Ps. **** Qarl

There appears to be two different camps as far as the SFL is concerned. Those who want it to be just SFL, which I would like to see myself.

And those who want SFL + high drop rates. Which I personally do not want to see.

I see no reason for the latter.

Why would the value of an item matter at all in an environment without trading?

You're painting the discussion black and white again by saying your items always come from trading in the current game.

This is very likely how you'll end up acquiring very good items, items that aren't necessary for your character's progression through the game. This doesn't mean that you will never find good items for your characters yourself. The nature of the game makes it a rarity to find top tier items for whatever builds you might be focusing on, and this is why trading exists in the first place. But don't forget that these items didn't poof into existence in someone's stash. The items dropped for someone.

If they buffed drop rates for a league to the point where finding or crafting a BiS (or even in the same ballpark as BiS) item set for your build was possible in any reasonable amount of time, you might as well think about removing gear as a factor completely, because most players are gonna have generally the same variations of the same items for the same builds in almost literally no time at all.