Make this step and POE will be better than D2.

Total agree

"

Moeeom123 wrote:

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

(...)

ok, this is becoming a nice flamewar. i had time to make this post, i repied you once to clear your worries, didn't really work, i could write anything you won't agree.
i just wanted to write my ideas, only a post like this called attention to them, sorry if it make you fear more about something i didn't wrote about really.

I'm not sure where you get flaming from.
I thought I was quite rational. I'm just trying to point out the elephant in the room.

People start trading for stuff and stop farming for it when

subjective profit from trading ≥ profit that could have been had by farming

which can also be expressed as

subjective profit from trading ≥ time spent trading * drop rate

Therefore, making trading easier is fucking dangerous for an ARPG. The easier trading becomes, the more and more people will rely on it instead of farming for the things they need, making the game more trading simulator and less ARPG. Make it way too easy -- like the buyout system in Diablo 3 -- and the entire economy collapses. You can't really compensate by increasing drop rate, because increasing drop rate also speeds up economic stagflation.

I'm not saying there aren't things to do. I'm just saying that trading vs farming balance needs to be considered when designing trading mechanisms. Personally, I'd make an internal version of forum shops, as well as third-part shops indexers, and stop there; these services are already available, and integrating them into the game itself wouldn't hurt much.

I just wanted to put a word here, I have to say item vs item trading is probably the biggest thing i miss in ARPGs nowadays. I don't know why, but that made trading way funnier, at least to me.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

(...)

+1, attached it to the post

I've found through the years that it's a hell of a lot more fun to want something than it is to have it. That's what makes these games fun. Knowing that there's something out there to find. Once you've found it, the game is over.

It's probably also worth noting that the subjective profit naturally gets bigger proportional to the value of the item(s) being traded; in no case will the profit be greater than the revenue, so small-item trade profit is limited by the item's value.

Thus big-ticket items will always be traded back and forth in an ARPG, and that's just fine. Big trades that players have to save up for actually provide good motivation.

The problem is when trading is made too easy, and mediocre items start becoming commonly bought and sold. You can tell this is happening when all sorts of items are routinely sold extremely cheap, and mostly for convenience factor -- it wouldn't be that hard to farm something better, but it's even easier to trade for it. In general, you want the game to have a relatively high bar for an item to be "tradeable" rather than just "trash." This keeps mediocre items out of the economy.

This is important because, if mediocre items are part of the economy, then the "rich get richer" feeling becomes worse and worse. That's because more of the no-lifer farm product gets resold to the casuals, while the casuals don't really enjoy the same -- there's no market behind the casuals to buy their hand-me-downs, especially if low resistance allows the no-lifers to saturate the economy. The result is that being on the cutting edge of the game is highly valued, and actually having a life outside PoE becomes a bigger and bigger liability.

Note that this is contrary to the desires of most players pushing for trading reform. A lot of the frustration in trading comes from attempts to unload trash items that are almost, but not quite, tradeable. Players short-sightedly desire to unload these items by lowering the inconvenience factor of trading, without thinking of the consequences of no-lifers having the inconvenience factor on their trades reduced.

A healthier and more mature attitude is to accept that mediocre items are (and should be) unsellable, and vendoring them instead of beating your head against the wall.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

People start trading for stuff and stop farming for it when

subjective profit from trading ≥ profit that could have been had by farming

which can also be expressed as

subjective profit from trading ≥ time spent trading * drop rate

Therefore, making trading easier is fucking dangerous for an ARPG. The easier trading becomes, the more and more people will rely on it instead of farming for the things they need, making the game more trading simulator and less ARPG. Make it way too easy -- like the buyout system in Diablo 3 -- and the entire economy collapses. You can't really compensate by increasing drop rate, because increasing drop rate also speeds up economic stagflation.

I'm not saying there aren't things to do. I'm just saying that trading vs farming balance needs to be considered when designing trading mechanisms. Personally, I'd make an internal version of forum shops, as well as third-part shops indexers, and stop there; these services are already available, and integrating them into the game itself wouldn't hurt much.

while there is truth to that the problem is that all things are not equal at the moment. high end items aren't even accessible for "normal players" without trading at the moment unless they run bot programs to multibox etc... There's no way a guy like me who works 40+ hours a week has the time to farm the thousands of orbs it takes to craft high end items. Its a practical impossibility. Sure I might get a few lucky drops here and there but you cant honestly argue that its feasible to get good gear by just relying on drops without it taking years to accomplish. As of now I have completely accepted the fact my gear will always be mediocre. Now you may ask why i focus on high end items in my argument. Well lets be honest this is what this is all about. Crafting and finding 3 and 4 link items with decent stats is relatively easy and can be done on a normal persons schedule in a reasonable amount of time but the problem is that the acquisition end game gear relies on trading for people like me. There's just no other way.

This is why so many people want an easier way to trade because honestly its the only way we are ever going to get "good" gear in this game. Because of this once I get in the 70s and pretty much hit the soft cap on my gear I just re roll because at that point I have 2 choices. Go through the incredible annoyance of finding what i need and someone willing to trade it for the minuscule amount of currency I have, or quit my job so I can farm 8 hours a day. I don't want to do either so I just roll a new toon because thankfully I enjoy leveling new characters and trying new builds. The problem is not everyone is like me. they want to "complete" their characters before they roll a new one if they even WANT to roll a new one and this creates a problem and you get the complaints you see from the OP and many others that have come and gone.


I don't have an answer on how to fix this. Hell I am not even sure there is a good way to address this while keeping what you said in mind but its going to be a continuing issue for many players and it isn't going to go away. For now I just patiently wait to see what GGG has planned for trading and hope its good enough.

I Agree idea!.

"

derbefrier wrote:

Spoiler

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

People start trading for stuff and stop farming for it when

subjective profit from trading ≥ profit that could have been had by farming

which can also be expressed as

subjective profit from trading ≥ time spent trading * drop rate

Therefore, making trading easier is fucking dangerous for an ARPG. The easier trading becomes, the more and more people will rely on it instead of farming for the things they need, making the game more trading simulator and less ARPG. Make it way too easy -- like the buyout system in Diablo 3 -- and the entire economy collapses. You can't really compensate by increasing drop rate, because increasing drop rate also speeds up economic stagflation.

I'm not saying there aren't things to do. I'm just saying that trading vs farming balance needs to be considered when designing trading mechanisms. Personally, I'd make an internal version of forum shops, as well as third-part shops indexers, and stop there; these services are already available, and integrating them into the game itself wouldn't hurt much.

while there is truth to that the problem is that all things are not equal at the moment. high end items aren't even accessible for "normal players" without trading at the moment unless they run bot programs to multibox etc... There's no way a guy like me who works 40+ hours a week has the time to farm the thousands of orbs it takes to craft high end items. Its a practical impossibility. Sure I might get a few lucky drops here and there but you cant honestly argue that its feasible to get good gear by just relying on drops without it taking years to accomplish. As of now I have completely accepted the fact my gear will always be mediocre. Now you may ask why i focus on high end items in my argument. Well lets be honest this is what this is all about. Crafting and finding 3 and 4 link items with decent stats is relatively easy and can be done on a normal persons schedule in a reasonable amount of time but the problem is that the acquisition end game gear relies on trading for people like me. There's just no other way.

This is why so many people want an easier way to trade because honestly its the only way we are ever going to get "good" gear in this game.

I understand you have a life outside PoE, but you can't shortcut the effort needed to get an item without also shortcutting that effort for the no-lifers. With some RNG exceptions, no-lifers will always have more online wealth than you. Period. Trading isn't an equalizer that will help you conquer them. If anything, they will use trading more than you will.

Here's how it really works: the easier trading is, the less farming happens. The less farming happens, the less likely that wealth is random and the more likely that it is a pure function of time input. The more it's a pure function of time input, the more the no-lifers control the economy, and the more casuals are marginalized.

Everyone hates RNG, but it doesn't deserve the bad rap. RNG is the only way for a small handful of casuals to have relevance in the online economy, by luckily being in a dominant position over no-lifers. Plus, farming is funner than trading anyway.