In response to how "GGG always addresses anything Evasion related"

"

thepmrc wrote:

That would be due to having low life and/or damage mitigation...

How exactly is entropy bad? The fact that removing it only benefits you on lucky streaks and is essentially bad the rest of the time doesn't really support your case here.

Low life?

How much life do you think rangers and shadows can get in their section?

Why do you think every ranger ventures far to the marauder tree?
Why does every shadow practically use ES?

Their sections are not "life stacking" areas, so low life, depending on what you mean by low, is commonplace. Or are you expecting evasive builds to be running around with 5k hp?

Why even start as a ranger and travel all the way to marauder when you can just go marauder and get more str, not have to worry about

Damage mitigation?

What does dmg mitigation have to do with evasion? Are you suggesting I use armor with evasion? In other words I need to use armor to make evasion manageable? Which is something I stated in this thread. "Evasion crying out to armor and energy shield".


You do know you cannot stack evasion and life? You have to choose one. This is especially true as a ranger or shadow. You have to travel far to get any life. This means you sacrifice evasion nodes to get to that life. Getting the evasion nodes means you sacrifice the life.

I always say 50% evasion for a reason. Cause to have 50% evasion in your 70s you are have to spec into evasion nodes, and that means less of everything else. You also need good gear.

This was my gear at lvl 72 and my tree. I had 50% evasion at this point. The 50% came with 4 frenzy charges with gave me 16% increased evasion rating.

Only posting gear that gave evasion or had dex. My other ring/amulet/belt didn't have dex or evasion rating



Skill Tree

I equipped this shield at one point just to see how bad evasion scaling was



I went from 50% to 52%. Lol. That's why I use 50% evasion, cause it's practically the "cap", so to speak. All those evasion nodes, and with a 1000 shield I only go up by 2 points.

There are many people who will not have the same gear I have, so their evasion will will lower.

"

lososthefish wrote:

I actually made an evasion/acrobatics char. Good i had enough respec points to spec into iron reflexes at once and drop acrobatics. The 50% less armor and es is not worth the 30% rng evasion. Stun is a problem for evasion. Traps, etheral knifes too and bleeding. Being hit with a bleed with no armor is death in a blink of an eye, no flask can save you. Currently not many monsters use trap and ek, but there may be some in the future. Armor has no such downsides. Bosses can be tanked with crazy amounts of armor and granite flasks. The evasion would work if the es was not reduced with acrobatics because it gives you more health and 50% stun resist. You could get some stun resist and stay safe.

You made a very wise choice. Cannot blame you. I almost specced into it myself.

Was sitting at 16k evasion rating. Very tempting.

"

Real_Wolf wrote:

OP, your posts get more and more ridiculous.

Entropy is the BEST thing about evasion.

Evasion itself could use some work to make it more valuable, but entropy is the strongest part of evasion.

Put it this way. If you knew that you had to tank 50% of the hits, and could theoretically do so (at the moment with life the way it is this isn't too feasible), then with current entropy you would have no fear of dying.

Wait what?!?! If you knew you could tank 50% of hits?

How would you know this? All I said was you know for a fact 50% of the hits are guaranteed to connect. That doesn't equate to being able to tank them.

"

If it was completely random like you always propose, or even part random, you WOULD NOT KNOW. You would go into melee, and if slightly unlucky with RNG it would roll that you would get hit 4 times in a row.

Have you ever used a character with high block chance? Just asking btw.

Do you know how effective pure rng can be when you get it to high numbers? Especially the numbers I'm proposing in this thread.

Pure rng is better than entropy once you reach certain numbers.

I'd rather have 50% pure rng than 50% entropy. I've had 46% dual wield block before. I didn't realize how good it was till I lost it. That was my dual wield volls protector shadow. I've also had 50% entropy. 46% rng >>>>>> than 50% entropy any day. Not even a contest.

I currently have 44% chance to dodge. This 44% chance to dodge is better than 50% entropy. It's the only thing keeping me alive
[/quote]

"

Regardless of how you do it, without a GAURENTEED system such as entropy, in HARDCORE you would NEVER play EVASION. This is because EVASION would get you killed the ONE time your RNG did not work.

The one time rng does not work? Like how the whole time entropy doesn't work?

Rng at the numbers i'm proposing will definitely protect you alright. Evasion isn't meant to make you invincible, so don't look at it from that perspective.

Evasion is more of a gamble like defense. Guaranteed hits to death makes resurrect appear on your screen quite often.

"

So please

PLEASE

STOP TRYING TO REMOVE IT OR SAY ITS BAD.

You just make yourself look bad by not understanding mechanics or the basics of the game.




I don't mind you trying to improve evasion, it needs some work to make it more valuable (my favourite idea is +flat evasion on dex, so the dex bonus can be more valuable with % nodes and % on gear. Or the 'glancing blow' style of evasion where if you don't avoid you can reduce). But stop trying to remove the only thing that makes evasion ABLE to be used.

And yes, I have a high level character, in melee, who uses evasion. It is quite bad, I use it for hit and run mostly with my cyclone FB, but the arrow dodging more than makes up for this weakness in melee

You have a cyclone FB toon. I also use cyclone on my character. Just started using it recently actually.

There are 2 things you've missed:

You're facebreaker, so I'm guessing you're using a shield

Cyclone protects you from stuns, and the only thing that can stop you is death [or a rock lol])


So you have block chance, and you're using a skill that gives you stun immunity.

Stun immunity and block chance are not evasion.

The entropy system gets you stun locked, but you use a skill that prevents you from getting stunned.

You have a shield(?), which will negate more attacks than your evasion will.


I'm guessing you're also a marauder(duelist/templar?)? So you're lucky in the life department, but that alone won't protect you from evasion's shortcomings.

What lvl are you, and what is your chance to evade if I might ask? Do you have any armor by any chance? If yes how much? Running determination as well?


You can test how good your evasion is.

Remove your shield, and use frenzy instead of cyclone.

Now you don't have shield block, and aren't using a skill that prevents stun locks.

Jump into a map that is appropriate for your level and you'll see why no one uses evasion.

Just going to say first, my 'tank 50% hits' is "IF YOU KNEW". I specifically said at the moment due to life vs evasion it is not possible. But it is not the entropy that is the problem.

You have yet to state a single way that if you took a theoretical 20 hits, and you can only tank at most 3 hits in a row, that 50% RNG is better than 50% entropy. With 50% entropy, you know how many times you will evade. With 50% RNG there is that one time when you will die. This means in HC it would never be feasible no matter how OP it is to rely on it as a defensive statistic.

Entropy is always working perfectly. The issue is that life vs evasion is out of wack, and evasion needs a boost. Not that the actual entropy is the problem. Please stop making things up based on anecdotal evidence.

Secondly, as for my FBer, it is a ranger (cause i wanted to be a ranger, I will admit a mara/duelist would do a lot better, and up until level 60 the health was so low the build failed quite badly), and it uses a max +phys quiver to boost the dps (don't have the upgraded helm, and tbh i don't play her too much because of evasions+life being a weak option relative to the incoming damage). That being said, I understand evasions weakness. Better than you apparently. I know that I have to avoid taking lots of hits from certain enemy setups. I also know that evasion with its entropy works amazingly against the ranged enemies. So I kite melee. I shit myself for the super fast melee that can outrun me (with a ton of ms on me to keep up with them).

I am NOT saying evasion is perfect. I am saying you are WRONG in assuming it is entropy because you are unable to understand how entropy works

"

SoujiroSeta wrote:

So tell me then why at lvl 72, playing a lvl 66 map (which means my 50% chance to evade is actually higher vs lvl 66 monsters), I was getting stun locked? Tell me why any moment I ran up to attack a mob I would get interrupted and stun lock and go into potion spam?

I'm talking only about the entropy system. Evasion with entropy is strictly better than evasion without entropy.

Evasion as a whole sucks though. I have played melee evasion characters in maps. IR is so superior it's laughable.

Maybe if you stopped being completely insane and realized that entropy is a good thing -- or at the very least falls right under Auction House as likely changes to the game -- then perhaps some of your other ideas on evasion would actually pick up some attention.

As is, you're pretty easily dismissed as a raving lunatic.

"

Real_Wolf wrote:

You have yet to state a single way that if you took a theoretical 20 hits, and you can only tank at most 3 hits in a row, that 50% RNG is better than 50% entropy. With 50% entropy, you know how many times you will evade. With 50% RNG there is that one time when you will die. This means in HC it would never be feasible no matter how OP it is to rely on it as a defensive statistic.

Entropy is always working perfectly. The issue is that life vs evasion is out of wack, and evasion needs a boost. Not that the actual entropy is the problem. Please stop making things up based on anecdotal evidence.

I will respond to this part below with a video

"

Secondly, as for my FBer, it is a ranger (cause i wanted to be a ranger, I will admit a mara/duelist would do a lot better, and up until level 60 the health was so low the build failed quite badly), and it uses a max +phys quiver to boost the dps (don't have the upgraded helm, and tbh i don't play her too much because of evasions+life being a weak option relative to the incoming damage). That being said, I understand evasions weakness. Better than you apparently. I know that I have to avoid taking lots of hits from certain enemy setups. I also know that evasion with its entropy works amazingly against the ranged enemies. So I kite melee. I shit myself for the super fast melee that can outrun me (with a ton of ms on me to keep up with them).

I am NOT saying evasion is perfect. I am saying you are WRONG in assuming it is entropy because you are unable to understand how entropy works

You don't understand why I asked you to take off cyclone and use frenzy?

We are talking about 2 different things here

I'm talking about evasion

You are talking about evasion with stun immunity (cyclone)

Evasion does not grant stun immunity. Take off your cyclone and use a different skill that doesn't prevent you from being stunlocked.

Then you will experience evasion in it's entirety, stunlocks and attack interruptions included.

Also what is your chance to evade?

"

aimlessgun wrote:

I'm talking only about the entropy system. Evasion with entropy is strictly better than evasion without entropy.

Evasion as a whole sucks though. I have played melee evasion characters in maps. IR is so superior it's laughable.

There is a reason, not stated in this thread but in my "Way to fix evasion thread", about why I don't like the entropy system.

You don't have to agree, but I will state it again. There are 2 reasons.



1.

Take a look at this vid of kripp. (Real_Wolf, this is how entropy works perfectly...as you said)

His Discharger's death

This is similar to what happens when you use an evasive character at 50% chance to evade.

Don't look at the fact that shield charge always hits, but rather what's happening.

He gets stunlocked just long enough for the next rhoa to hit, and stunlocked again just long enough for the next rhoa to hit, and stunlocked again just....You get the idea.

This chaining of stunlocks is essentuated by the entropy system. I'll explain.

At 50%, you have hit miss hit miss. Let assume monstes A, B, C, D, E....are attacking. Note I'm not even taking into effect monster mods or which monsters hit the hardest.

They all swing. Monster A is first, and he misses. This means B will connect. B connects and stuns you. C will miss, which is good yes, but B stunned you long enough that although C missed, D, which is guaranteed to hit, will stun you again. D's stun will last long enough that although E will miss, F with his guaranteed hit will stun you again for the next monster in the sequence that is guaranteed to hit to stun you again.

This is an unbreakable chain. It will happen. Whether you like it or not.

You've used evasive melee, so you've experienced this first hand.

I'm saying the entropy system complements chain stunlocking. This was an unintended side effect of trying to make evasion less streaky. In turn, it ended up doing the opposite. Putting you in a situation in which you cannot escape. Practically almost guaranteeing your death.

There are a lot of things to be factored in. Monster mods which affect how much dmg they'll deal, how fast the monster are attacking, how fast the attacks are coming in, are the guaranteed hits from the hardest hitting monsters, etc.

Entropy works in theory. I won't lie it's very good on paper. But when you throw that entropy into a real POE gameplay experience, it doesn't pan out well because the entropy system doesn't factor in how POE tosses hordes at you with different monster abilities, attack speeds, etc. It was built so you get hit in a sequence and thus in theory prevent streaky hits, But that sequence, when put into PoE, leads to chain-stunlocking which gets you killed fast. As shown in the vid of kripp.

The entropy system assumes that monsters are attacking slow, giving you enough time to escape in between the series of guaranteed hits and misses, but this is not the case. Monster A attacks, and B doesn't wait 10 seconds to attack, and after that C won't wait 5 seconds to attack. A, B, C, D, E, F....all will attack when ever they feel like it. And all their attacks could come in the span of 2 seconds.

You see after kripp got stunlocked by the initial rhaos, the other ones started charging. As they were charging, the initial rhaos who stunned him in the beginning started attacking again. In other words, when monster F is about to do his first attack, you have monster A, B, and C going for round 2. All this is happening very quickly mind you.

These are the kind of variables the entropy system doesn't take into account. That is why people who use evasion and are upclose to monsters notice they get stunlocked repeatedly for long periods of time. Your attacks are interrupted, and you can't move. You simply stand there, stuck.



2.

The entropy system doesn't reward you for going 1 or 2 or 3 points higher. You have to reach certain checkpoints.

45-60%
63-70%
73-80%

In the first you have hit-miss-hit-miss
Second, hit-miss-miss-miss
Third, miss - miss - miss - hit

With the entropy system, you have to reach certain ranges to get any benefit from it.

What this means is that you are not rewarded for going from 50% evasion to 55% evasion. Or going from 55-60%. At 60% you'll still have hit-miss-hit-miss.

At lvl 72 with my 50% evasion. I went to act 2 merciless, and was getting hit miss hit miss against monkeys in old fields. Mind you these monkeys are lvl 53. So my 50% evasion is definitely higher than 50% against lvl 53 monsters.

This is another problem with entropy.

45% evasion, will yield hit miss hit miss. Just like 55% evasion will yield hit miss hit miss. You've gone up 10 points, but it doesn't matter. Hit miss hit miss.

You would have to land on certain entropy values to see a difference which would come later on in the sequence as either a hit or a miss. At that point that's reaching for straws. I shouldn't be going "I hope when I attack that mob the entropy number is between 60-65 cause at my evasion rating that would mean I get one extra miss on the nth attack, cause if it lands from 45-50 then I'll get hit more"

You aren't rewarded for going up incrementally.

52% armor reduction against avg monsters your lvl is not the same as 55% armor reduction against monsters your lvl. You'll take 3% less dmg.

5k energy shield is not the same as 5.5k energy sheild. You have 500 more.

So why shouldn't evasion be the same? Why should 45-60% evasion yield hit miss hit miss? So I will only see miss miss hit at around 64-70% chance to evade?



Difference from pure rng

1.

50% shield block is no joke. I've dabbled with 48%, and lemme tell yo...you can have 6 rhoas charge at you and still survive.

There is no sequence with pure rng. This is turn means every battle is dynamic. There is no guaranteed stunlock cause nothing is guaranteed.

The higher the pure rng number is, the less likely you'll get hit continuously like you would with the entropy.

There are characters who's only defense is block chance, and they cap it. They don't have guaranteed hits which equate to stunlock chaining all the time moments either.

2.

There is a difference from 45% rng and 50% rng, and an even bigger difference from 45% and 60%. Heck even going up 1 point in rng makes a difference. Not the same with entropy

Pure rng states

"The higher the number, the better"

You will negate more attacks with 50% rng, than you will with 45% rng.

With entropy, 45% entropy will yield hit miss hit miss. Just like 55% entropy will yield hit miss hit miss. 10pts higher, and still no difference.


This is why I always state rng is better than entropy. Entropy is too calculated, and it turn there is no reason to want to shoot for higher incrementally. You're either within a certain range or you're not. It's that simple. Add that to the fact that stunlocks are guaranteed and you start to see why I want to move to a "The higher your evasion, the better" system.

You can like entropy, I'm not saying you can't.

But now can you plz state your reason?

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Maybe if you stopped being completely insane and realized that entropy is a good thing -- or at the very least falls right under Auction House as likely changes to the game -- then perhaps some of your other ideas on evasion would actually pick up some attention.

As is, you're pretty easily dismissed as a raving lunatic.

If you're here to troll then plz take that elsewhere.

Whatever personal vendetta you have against me, I don't know, but plz lets not derail this thread.