In response to how "GGG always addresses anything Evasion related"

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mohcrastinator wrote:

Agreed that the problem with the current defensive mechanisms other than stacking life is inherent to the current system.
1) Because armor gets less effective against single points of high damage like bosses, you are still forced to stack life to survive the burst. The current patch tends to make average enemies trivial while doing nothing for hard-hitting bosses.
2) Entropy-based evasion is novel, but as OP mentioned it is a death sentence for EV builds. Likewise, if nothing is done about Iron Reflexes, so long as armor is more effective than evasion, no one will bother with an EV build because taking IR will give you an equivalently better AR build.

Yep.

That's why no one uses evasion. It's either armor or energy shield.

If you ask most what evasion is, they say "Oh you mean that thing that I convert to armor?".

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One solution might be to boost EV values, reduce the effectiveness of IR (make it so all total EV/AR is calculated separately and then added together) and reinstate pure RNG for EV rolls when you take the Acrobatics keystone.

Pure rng should be for evasion roles without acrobatics. Making acro a requirement for evasion builds is not a good thing.

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The whole point of an EV based character is the gambling aspect- you are betting that you can resolve the engagement before you take a string of hits, and that you can tank the occasional hit through leech/regen.

Exactly.

You know you will get hit, but you're expecting to "weave in and out of combat" and kill the monsters before they kill you. You expect to get hit big every now and then, and sometimes take hits in succession, but you have ways to deal with that (leech/regen). Sometimes you go into a fight expecting to take a ton of hits, only to not get hit at all. That's the gambling aspect of evasion.

The entropy system doesn't have any of that. You can't even attack cause guaranteed hits in a sequential order put you in stun lock. There is no "weaving in and out of combat evasively". You have 50% evasion, if you even have that much by mapping and enough life to survive, and see a horde approaching you in a map. You count them, 20 melee attackers. 10 guaranteed to hit FACT. This is before they even engage.

All that matters is how much dmg those guaranteed hits will deal, how fast they'll land, and whether you can pot spam fast enough to survive.

Evasion needs to get to much higher numbers and return back to pure rng.

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At the same time, boosting EV values and reducing IR effectiveness should allow hybrid EV builds to carve out a niche.
A possible solution for armor is a damage cap based on your armor, which reduces the maximum damage taken from any single hit down to a % of your maximum life. This could come in the form of a keystone, or could be scattered as Notables at the end of an armor node path. This guarantees you cannot be 1-shotted as long as you have enough armor, but does not protect against DoT or a flurry of mid-damage hits. There are obviously a lot of balance issues that would need working out, but this is just the beginning of an idea.

Funny you say this. I was going to post an armor suggesting along the lines of something like this. It was a very simple formula too. It prevented you from getting 1 shot from physical dmg, which was based on how much armor you have.

Ofcourse it'll have to be looked into cause it would be very powerful, and could be abused, and will make armor much better than energy shield.

^

The existence of Iron Reflexes does not prevent the devs from buffing Evasion. They could simply reduce the Accuracy of monsters, or even change the Accuracy vs Evasion formula (this latter change would probably involve increasing the Accuracy of player characters as compensation, otherwise they'd miss all the time).

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Incompetent wrote:

The existence of Iron Reflexes does not prevent the devs from buffing Evasion. They could simply reduce the Accuracy of monsters, or even change the Accuracy vs Evasion formula (this latter change would probably involve increasing the Accuracy of player characters as compensation, otherwise they'd miss all the time).

Iron reflexes is the reason why evasion sucks.

If you buff evasion scaling, iron reflexes will benefit.

Reducing monster accuracy or changing the accuracy vs evasion formula doesn't improve evasion. Evasion's downfall comes in how the entropy system works. Guaranteed hits in a sequential order leading to stunlock leading to death. Tweaking monster accuracy and so on won't change the fact that guaranteed hits will lead to stunlock and lead to death.

In the end the outcome is still the same. Your attacks are interrupted, and you can't do anything but spam potions and hope you are able to break the stun lock before your potions run out.

OP, I love the post because it is very accurate. Dex on a whole is a joke, and its benefits are not visualized as str and int are which provide additional life/es. Rangers/Shadow high tail it out of their starting area because it sucks.

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SoujiroSeta wrote:

If you buff evasion scaling, iron reflexes will benefit.

False.

If you have 10k evasion, and right now that gives you 35% evade, and the formula is buffed so that 10k evasion instead gives you 50% evade, IR does not benefit.

Also, you don't understand how the entropy system works. It is a pure benefit to evasion. There are no downsides except in extremely specific limited cases.

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aimlessgun wrote:

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SoujiroSeta wrote:

If you buff evasion scaling, iron reflexes will benefit.

False.

If you have 10k evasion, and right now that gives you 35% evade, and the formula is buffed so that 10k evasion instead gives you 50% evade, IR does not benefit.

I knew it could be seen that way, but I was going on the assumption that he meant buffing it, as in making it reach higher numbers. that's another way. Guess I should have asked what way specifically.

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Also, you don't understand how the entropy system works. It is a pure benefit to evasion. There are no downsides except in extremely specific limited cases.

Anytime i see this, I always assume the person:

1. Used a ranged evasive spec, and is going on how evasion works on a ranged character. Which is funny, cause as ranged it doesn't matter what your spec is.
2. Hasn't actually played a melee evasive in endgame, and I don't mean spamming cleave/lightning strike from a distance

It's hard for me to assume otherwise because before I specced my character into what he is now, I had

50% chance to evade, and 30% acro cluster.

So tell me then why at lvl 72, playing a lvl 66 map (which means my 50% chance to evade is actually higher vs lvl 66 monsters), I was getting stun locked? Tell me why any moment I ran up to attack a mob I would get interrupted and stun lock and go into potion spam?

The fact you said "there are no downsides except in extremely specific limited cases" makes me believe that if, and a big if, you used evasion it was 100% on a ranged spec. Where your defense doesn't even matter at all.

At this point I'm 100% sure you've never touched evasive melee, and I'm not saying this as a jab or to be rude, but rather at the bewilderment that you said there "are no downsides except in extremely specific limited cases".

You have ranged specs running around with 1.7k life after 11.0 which is fine for ranged, but then some of them go as far as to say "1.8k life is all you need".

Just like how before 11.0 you had ranged specs that were viable with 5k life. 5K life was suicidal with melee pre-11.0

Try evasion as melee, and I assure you you won't progress. You will become best friends with Stunlock and his buddy "Ressurect".

You don't have to believe me. Jump into a map with an evasive melee and see for yourself.

So no, evasion does not work. Ranged characters work.

Shame I didn't record myself playing with my 50% evasive spec so I could pull that out anytime some says "evasion is good". This is with constantly moving and not trying to tank anything.

Now I ask you this:

Do you actually know how the entropy system works? Not only in theory, but from actual exprience? When you actually engage in upclose combat?

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SoujiroSeta wrote:

me then why at lvl 72, playing a lvl 66 map (which means my 50% chance to evade is actually higher vs lvl 66 monsters), I was getting stun locked? Tell me why any moment I ran up to attack a mob I would get interrupted and stun lock and go into potion spam?

That would be due to having low life and/or damage mitigation...

How exactly is entropy bad? The fact that removing it only benefits you on lucky streaks and is essentially bad the rest of the time doesn't really support your case here.

I actually made an evasion/acrobatics char. Good i had enough respec points to spec into iron reflexes at once and drop acrobatics. The 50% less armor and es is not worth the 30% rng evasion. Stun is a problem for evasion. Traps, etheral knifes too and bleeding. Being hit with a bleed with no armor is death in a blink of an eye, no flask can save you. Currently not many monsters use trap and ek, but there may be some in the future. Armor has no such downsides. Bosses can be tanked with crazy amounts of armor and granite flasks. The evasion would work if the es was not reduced with acrobatics because it gives you more health and 50% stun resist. You could get some stun resist and stay safe.

OP, your posts get more and more ridiculous.

Entropy is the BEST thing about evasion.

Evasion itself could use some work to make it more valuable, but entropy is the strongest part of evasion.

Put it this way. If you knew that you had to tank 50% of the hits, and could theoretically do so (at the moment with life the way it is this isn't too feasible), then with current entropy you would have no fear of dying.

If it was completely random like you always propose, or even part random, you WOULD NOT KNOW. You would go into melee, and if slightly unlucky with RNG it would roll that you would get hit 4 times in a row.

Regardless of how you do it, without a GAURENTEED system such as entropy, in HARDCORE you would NEVER play EVASION. This is because EVASION would get you killed the ONE time your RNG did not work.

So please

PLEASE

STOP TRYING TO REMOVE IT OR SAY ITS BAD.

You just make yourself look bad by not understanding mechanics or the basics of the game.




I don't mind you trying to improve evasion, it needs some work to make it more valuable (my favourite idea is +flat evasion on dex, so the dex bonus can be more valuable with % nodes and % on gear. Or the 'glancing blow' style of evasion where if you don't avoid you can reduce). But stop trying to remove the only thing that makes evasion ABLE to be used.

And yes, I have a high level character, in melee, who uses evasion. It is quite bad, I use it for hit and run mostly with my cyclone FB, but the arrow dodging more than makes up for this weakness in melee