In response to how "GGG always addresses anything Evasion related"
" Lets run some numbers shall we? Evasion at 50% chance, stunlocked if two hits occur within a 4 attack window of opportunity. With Entropy, we either have hit-miss-hit-miss or miss-hit-miss-hit and the char is boned. With Evasion, we have these possibilities: Hit(H)-H-H-H x1 HHHM x 4 HHMM x 6 HMMM x 4 MMMM x 1 So a 10/16th (62.5%) chance of being initially stunlocked. There is a 25% chance that the char will take a hit, and a 12.5% chance that they won't be hit at all. After the initial stunlock, the window resets, and you're looking at an additional 50%*50%*50% or 12.5% chance of escape after every additional hit (looking for HMMM specifically during the window, as the first one landed). 62.5% chance looks quite nasty, but various things affect how threatening this large percentage is. These are how long the window lasts for, which is down to stun recovery speeds, how much damage is coming in during that window and how much health buffer the char has to play around with. For example, if our window is 4 attacks / second, and our attacks are 50 damage a piece, you're looking at an expected 100 dps. Say we want a safety buffer of 90% chance to escape before death, then we are looking at where: 37.5% + 62.5% * 12.5% + 62.5% * 87.5% * 12.5% ... = 90% 1 + 87.5% + 87.5% * 87.5% + 87.5% * 87.5% * ... = (90% - 37.5%) / (12.5% * 62.5%) = 6.72 87.5% + ... = 5.72 87.5% * 87.5% + ... = 5.72 * 87.5% 5.72 - 5.72 * 87.5% = 87.5% - (87.5%) ^ windows windows = log(87.5%)(87.5% - 5.72 + 87.5% * 5.72) = log(87.5%)(14.284%) = log(14.284%) / log(87.5%) = 14.57 windows. So about 15. Each window lasts either a 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 of a second before the next blow lands and we roll again to escape, the 1/4 second happening twice as often as the 1/2, the 3/4 happening half as frequently again, so the average duration is (1/4 * 4 + 1/2 * 2 + 3/4) / 7 = 11/28 second, with 50 extra damage per window. So dps is 50 every 11/28 s = 127 dps (slightly higher than 100 theoretical because we're not counting the case where you get missed and escape immediately). This is sustained for 15 * 11/28 seconds for 90% escape certainty = 5.89 seconds. Ignoring the time per window, that's 15 * 50 subsequent hits + 50 for initial = 800 damage you need to soak for 90% escape, or some other mitigation that can soak this much damage for at most 5.89 seconds (pots) This would be working off a 200 hp base I guess, because I believe the stun threshold is 25% of total HP. If that's the case then the scenario would have you needing 4x max HP to avoid stun death 90% of the time. This doesn't seem like a feasible strategy. Personally though, I'd prefer if pure evasion characters could reach much higher than 50% dodge chance, and with acrobatics, you're going to have an extra flat 20-30% chance of miss on top of this, as well as block (although block recovery can stunlock you too, although you don't take the damage). 50% should be where hybrid defense classes sit IMO, in which case you'd have a decent amount of armour which would prevent common mobs doing this much relative damage in the first place, or an additional stun aversion and HP pool with ES. Last edited by discrider#2589 on Jun 16, 2013, 12:41:53 AM
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" I admit I didn't understand any of that but please explain why with evasion these are the possibilities Hit(H)-H-H-H x1 HHHM x 4 HHMM x 6 HMMM x 4 MMMM x 1 but not these: MMMH MMHH MHHH I'm just curius, I don't play evasion at all. edit: oh I get it, x6 means permutations of 4 hits if two hit and 2 miss. You just didn't want to write all of them. Nevermind then. Last edited by gfurm#5615 on Jun 16, 2013, 7:13:58 AM
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Getting stunlocked and killed every tenth encounter still makes your character useless.
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" Exactly. Topic starter, entropy guarantees you a window of time when you will not be hit -- if you cannot recover from a stun in that time, just get faster stun recovery mods on gear - they are plentiful. And stun avoidance passives. RNG evasion cannot work because it will allow a possibility of a streak of hits to kill you. With 90% evasion there is still 1% chance that Kole will hit you twice in a row and send you to default -- armor character can survive that, evasion character cannot -- that is why there is entropy system, you will always have time to move away after first hit. Stop suggesting RNG evasion, it will make life of evasion characters depend on RNG. Period. Immortal King WW Marauder build: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/348782/page/1 ign: Peresvet Last edited by Deen1983#6852 on Jun 16, 2013, 7:43:56 AM
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" This The entropy RNG system actually works massive favors for the concept of evasion, which is dodging a number of hits in a small window, long enough for evasion characters to do their thing |
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" Imho there are other ways of keeping entropy/IR and not needing pure RNG to returrn. Revisioning evasion scaling is something I thing is needed. Actually the real problem for evasion users is more the stunlock system than beeing hit 100% sure every so often. If the game gave evasion users a ways to minimaze or negate Stun far more than it does now, it would give Evasion characters the survability boost they need I think. How to do that? a few things come to mind Regarding Iron Reflexes, I think that GGG made a mistake thinking about what kind of builds would really use this keystone more; if you look how both type of defenses work, armor users will get most profit from IR whilst evasion users will get none of it (as it will efectively convert them to armor users). I know this may sound crazy and means a lot of changes, but here goes: First of it change the Keystone Unwavering Stance so it is suited to Eva users, change it from Cannot Evade enemy Attacks Cannot be Stunned to Character has no armor Cannot be Stunned or Avoid Stun 85% Then swap the positions of Iron Reflexes and Unvawering Stance keystones, IR near armor defense part of the tree and US near the evasion users. By doing that, and giving access eva users to not beeing stunned (at a cost, it is still not that near, but it would be worth it) or nearly immune with hte second form, would effectively remove the stun-lock that is actually killing eva based builds. Along this line of thought, if eva user does not want to go for stun immunity, give more chances to them to reduce stun effects, like the 3 nodes of avoid stun near the Ranger tree start. That could be added top the evasion nodes or creating new ones; give dextrety/evasion users more stun avoidance or stun recovery (although this sounds more right for armor users). One of the things I like from PoE apart of the skill system, its the way stats work, and their added value, why not going a bit more far away and give stats a third added value for each 10 points of skill? something in the lines of: - Dextrety, every 10 dextrety grants 0.5% stun avoidance - Strength, every 10 strength grants 0.5% physical damage reduction - Intelligence, every 10 intelligence grants 0.5% elemental damage reduction for the average character (not stat specialist) assuming 300-350 of the main stat it would give 15-17.5% of the desired stat, and for the stat specialist (say 450 of main stat) we are looking at 22,5 of said defense. Of course this is just theorycrafting and that third stat could be a physical damage booster for strength users and elemental damage boost for int users, but you get the point. that extra 15 - 22 % of stun avoidance for evasion users would be a huge boost even if US would not be reworked for evasion users. |
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" Actually, patch does a lot for bosses. Boss dmg nerfed 2%, HP nodes nerfed ~30%, armor nodes boosted by ~20% (which at lvl 70+ give you 0.5% more armor for 10% armor node taken, instead of 0.3% before the patch) so bosses pretty much ignore your 40-50% of armor and you have less HP and you are more squishy than before the "nerf" to monster dmg. Armour nodes are as bad as they were before (not worth the nodes/time except for leather and steel IF you can reach it, and that's just for movement speed sake mostly). I am actually trying to build block+ar+ev+ondar duelist, but I had to take iron grip. I just had to. at lvl 50, putting 400EV head gear instead of 100EV and 400EV chest instead of 200 netted me 2% more evasion, putting me at 31% from 29%. Throwing + 8% evasion nodes at the problem is a waste of time and nodes. if adding 500EV onto 2000EV evasion netted 2%, what's couple of 8% nodes gonna do? Nothing. Even worse when you level up to 70+ They wanted more diversity in builds so they nerfed hp nodes. They should have done the opposite, then people would take 7-8 hp nodes to cover their hp needs and have bunch more points to use for "more diversity". What they did will have the opposite effect - players will now take even more hp nodes to compensate for the nerf. No one still cares about armour. Why should they? Elite (blue) bear in merci hits me for 1000+ hp over my 52% armor rating and instead of having 3000hp, I have 2200hp now. Great White can almost one shot me. I am melee (I wanted to try it after all these boosts to melee). Will probably respec to ranger again. IMO, to make current changes work, to achieve build diversity, they need to give 3 skill points for every 5 levels OR to boost hp nodes from 6% to 15% (so people can be all hp no dmg if they want, or decent hp and dmg, trying out different keystones and combinations). Also, accuracy nodes are a joke. Each 10% more accuracy should be 50%, and 20% ones should be 80%. I took 40% accuracy in nodes, my accuracy went from 79 to 81. Joke. "Path of Exile be a online Action RPG set up in tha dark fantasy ghetto of Wraeclast. Well shiiiit..."
- Uzicorn, for teh children. |
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" I think both of you are missing the point. First off, I should point out I had my stun mechanics wrong, and to be stunned with every connecting hit, you need to be taking 50% of your total HP pool (through armour) with each hit. This is an absurd amount of damage and if you are getting stunlocked like this with this little HP you need to reconsider your strategy of not upgrading your health pool and then charging packs. 25% of health and above gives a percentage to stun, so the closer it is to 25% health, the more likely an Evasion character will have a premature release from the stunlock equations I formulated above. But you'd still be looking at 15 windows for 90% release if every attack that hits stuns. Now that that's rectified, the point I think you're both missing is playstyle. That 90% was just pulled out of the air and represented how much damage the character is willing to take in any fight. RNG won't save you if you get unlucky on big hitters. But here's the thing, this all comes down to playstyle. If Kole is stunlocking you, maybe you should try to avoid his smashes? If you're too concerned about a 1/10 chance about being stunlocked for more than 15 windows, maybe you should invest in some more HP or armour or simply not wander into far higher level packs in the first place? You don't have to take all the damage or stand in front of the guy to kill him, and agility should be based around avoiding the damage instead of trying to tank it all the time. If anything, this is probably a call for more agility based escape skills, especially ones that allow you to get out of fights before you get stunned, so melee agility can make an attack and then gtfo before the next big spike (even if it hits him in transit). I think Whirling Blades can be cancelled by stuns, otherwise I'd point to that as an appropriate agility skill. Last edited by discrider#2589 on Jun 17, 2013, 8:33:52 AM
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" Sure, but what does that have to do with RNG vs entropy? Entropy makes evasion more reliable and thus better, and if evasion still isn't good enough then the solution isn't to remove entropy! |
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The way I envision agility classes playing is through consistent single target elimination. That is, instead of tanking damage, the player both mitigates it by only attacking when they have the advantage, and also doesn't take it in the first place by keeping their distance and dodging attacks.
If this fails, then you're relying on your health buffer and your evasion % to get you out of trouble. Here you're not looking to mitigate damage, you're just looking for a reprieve so that you can get out of trouble and back into your optimal fighting pattern. So while the entropy system might be far better at letting you figure out how much damage you can sustain, it absolutely fails at getting you out of the tight spots you didn't want to be in in the first place. I'd much prefer an RNG here since then we'd have some chance at escape instead of an infinite stunlock cycle. But considering the above attack pattern fails when going up against fast groups of mobs which you can't easily keep your distance from, and also against flicker mobs, this may not be a viable strategy in PoE in the first place. I mean, you can slowly aggro an entire pack one at a time by abusing the edge of your screen, but that's pretty degenerate play. The big hitters are less of a problem, as you can often dodge their attacks manually. Last edited by discrider#2589 on Jun 17, 2013, 10:56:41 PM
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