You know what happens when your Reflexes turn to Iron?

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Skivverus wrote:

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Softspoken wrote:

I'd still love to see evasion specialize against burst damage hits. I'm told that armor is proportionally more effective against multiple little hits than single large hits: it might be nice to make evasion the converse of that. A flurry of smaller hits would be your counter, as well as magic.

You're kinda leaving out energy shield there - and energy shield is kinda the go-to defense mechanically for handling burst damage.

What it doesn't handle well is sustained damage (especially DoT), since that disrupts its recharge capability. Armor doesn't handle most DoT particularly well either (only affects Puncture on account of the DoT being based off of the initial hit damage), but most of the sources of it at the moment are mitigated by other strength-aligned defenses (life, resistances).

With sustained damage and burst damage covered by strength and intelligence, respectively, what would dexterity be best against? The answer so far appears to be "status effects"... which, personally, I'm happy with.

"Status effects" should mostly be aligned with elemental damage and it is therefore mostly intelligence aligned. However, I completely agree that DoTs are extremely potent and none of the 3 basic defences handles it particularly well, though evasion is the best of 3 bad choices. Same goes for curses and other debuffs. There is definately some potential for making defensive options reducing those effects without changing anything the game already offers, which is a pretty good deal in a beta! *hint**hint* :P

The only issue I have with DOTs (including Puncture) is that they are based on the damage the monster dealt /afaik, and so with some rare monsters in Chaos it's so ridiculously strong, that you'd have to have maxed Life Regen nodes and/or a combination of Life Regen and TONS Of Life to survive. Even Panicked flasks don't help then as it's so strong, and the panicked flasks don't even refill 50% of an already low 2K HP build.

Lately I was playing my 2nd melee Ranger whose build includes more Marauder nodes. Yesterday she was at 5% health in Chaos so many times without dying I thought that was odd. Since both of my Rangers have similar stats the main difference I could see is that one has 30% Block and Stun Recovery, the 2nd Ranger had 112%. So I'm definitely going to take this in consideration for the next respec.

@clinx well sorry that I misunderstood your post. Making any keystone a must have is unfair. It limits one the best things about this game - variety of different builds. Also it screws over any new players who don't know that without you're gonna have a sub-par character.

Your idea about % based damage reduction is interesting but it is quite complicated and would be hard to display in an easy to understand way in UI. It would still also mean it directly depends on how much hp you have. And it's not too abundant in the dex side of the tree. I would feel like we're almost back to the square one again. But that's just my opinion of the top of my head.

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vankeris wrote:

@clinx well sorry that I misunderstood your post. Making any keystone a must have is unfair. It limits one the best things about this game - variety of different builds. Also it screws over any new players who don't know that without you're gonna have a sub-par character.

Your idea about % based damage reduction is interesting but it is quite complicated and would be hard to display in an easy to understand way in UI. It would still also mean it directly depends on how much hp you have. And it's not too abundant in the dex side of the tree. I would feel like we're almost back to the square one again. But that's just my opinion of the top of my head.

ya I don't think its fair on either aspect. I just can't see another. Way except adding a new value on armor for dex players that does the same "damage changed for bleed" effect.

I don't think a passive is that hard just because players will realize they need it at what? Lvl 60 and that gives them plenty of points to then go and get the passive. I don't think its that far off from melee classes needed health regenerate nodes. Id say its about the same equivalent there. So if you want to play pure dex you have to get the node. Its not the best but how else can you make it fair? I also noticed while.playing a duelist I was better at lower levels then a marauder and a Templar because evasion is OP at low levels.

Alrighty, now that .9.11 has landed...

Charan the Melee Shadow at level 52 has 11897 Evasion rating with Grace.

67% chance to evade.

I'm no math genius, but have I actually gained raw evasion rating and lost %chance to evade?

I refer to what I said in this thread, about having less than 10k evasion and 70% chance to evade.

Uhm...what happened?

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Charan wrote:

Alrighty, now that .9.11 has landed...

Charan the Melee Shadow at level 52 has 11897 Evasion rating with Grace.

67% chance to evade.

I'm no math genius, but have I actually gained raw evasion rating and lost %chance to evade?

I refer to what I said in this thread, about having less than 10k evasion and 70% chance to evade.

Uhm...what happened?

Hmm, I probably should have have had a patch note for that. Monsters evasion and accuracy will be a little higher than it was before, from level 50 onwards or so.

So the estimated evasion will be based on the monsters you will be facing.

Thanks for that one, Qarl. I'd have picked it up early had I made the same char on Alpha. My bad as much as yours there.

Raising monster evasion seems logical, makes accuracy more important. But raising monster accuracy across the board... I don't know - evasion was perceived as weakest form of defense even before that. Although evasion on items did seem to go up, don't know if modifiers changed a bit or base evasion of items.

Well we'll see, so far an awesome patch. I finally got my Point blank-Arrow dodging-Acrobatic ranger with pretty high life and 3% regen :) So far died only to the awesome boss of act 2 once.

The evasion issue is a simplicity. The evasion system is a global one and it's broken. Every ARPG uses evasion this way

Why?

Because as mentioned over and over and over again. a 95% dodge chance = 5% chance of death per hit, add in the factor of multiple monsters. Add in end game difficulty.

A flat dodge chance of 95% sounds great on paper, but end game doesn't allow room for that 5% failure.

In other game's i've never argued for a change, the games have always been broken just so. But this game?

This game feels as though it aught to be the one that fixes evasion and brings it back into the realm of playable.

You can play some supremely weird innovative character builds, a pure evasion build seems like a simple thing by comparison.


Now for my suggestion: Could you not add in a system where, for every hit that beats your evasion chance, you can't be hit again for a few seconds. You could have it where when you're hit you get X damage reduction for the next X hits and call it "A glancing blow" - But thats essentially what armor already does.

You can stack pure armor and be just fine (Well, relatively). Why not evasion too?

I think players who want to play a damage reduction tank should have that choice.



That said. High evasion with Energy shield does work. Just be sure to buff up your energy shield through passives. CI etc.

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l0rdzedd wrote:

High evasion with Energy shield does work. Just be sure to buff up your energy shield through passives. CI etc.

Absolutely. As does life-stacking, resistances and evasion. Sometimes I feel my raw evasion gear is overkill in that department (+2500 evasion from grace granting a mere 5% to evade? Really?!), and that I should try some hybrid gear. But the hybrid gear drops my evasion so hard without really granting sufficient energy shield -- I'd need to grab some ES nodes for that too.

So I feel as though whether you go pure evasion (and get all the nodes, which is costly to say the least and makes you very deficient in other areas) or try hybrid evasion, something's still not clicking.

I'm still pushing for a revision of the keystones. It's the most likely fix -- Energy Shield gets Chaos Innoculation, and technically Armour gets Iron Reflexes (it's ironically one of the best ways to get stupidly high Armour). Both will significantly increase a character's survivability.

Arrow Dodging, Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics cannot claim the same -- and Arrow Dodging is right now way the fuck out in the middle of nowhere. Still annoyed that it lost its evasion cluster. Dual-wield cluster? Really?

Because dual-wielding's loss of shield-based evasion is virtually the *opposite* of what Arrow Dodging is relying on...