You know what happens when your Reflexes turn to Iron?

You can't move. That's what.

Iron Reflexes is bloody awful. On every possible level.

/succinct

Seriously. There are two word choices in this game that really get my goat, and this is by far the worse of the two.

Yes, this is another Evasion Needs Work thread, but I want to position it under the idea that Iron Reflexes is the culprit as to why such work wasn't done sooner.

I get it: the flavour text is cool and very Matrix-y and the idea is your evasion is SO high that you basically don't get hit and when you do it's a glancing blow, i.e. simulated by very high armour instead. Simulated poorly, but the idea was sort of neat.

So I've taken the obligatory jab at the keystone's name. Iron Reflexes. Really? Do a google search for those two words and your first five hits WILL be this game. The concept is that ludicrous, virtually no one else has put the two words together. Reflexes are meant to be quick, fluid, mercurial if you will. These are not adjectives even vaguely synonymous with iron.

But let's move beyond the name and consider the effect of the keystone itself. I accept that keystones are game-changers: they let you use life instead of mana, turn your minions into bombs, give you a chance to dodge spells altogether, let you share your charges with others. They are the uniques of the Skilldrasil. This is news to no one. Iron Reflexes is also a game-changer, but one that defies logic and even, in my eyes, breaks a fundamental playstyle. No other keystone goes entirely against the build that went towards it -- they change the character in interesting, build-defining ways. Iron Reflexes doesn't define a high evasion build; it enables a high armour build. Compared to the other keystones, Iron Reflexes is supremely LAZY and UNINSPIRED in design.

But it has allowed the illusion of high evasion builds to work because high evasion builds stop being high evasion builds once they get Iron Reflexes. Without Iron Reflexes as a fallback, a crutch, evasion's critical flaw (95% chance to evade cap=5% of all hits will land, and without armour's DR, most hits are killers) would have been addressed long ago. I sincerely believe this. Anytime someone brings up how broken evasion is, someone else, usually someone with a little less interest in making evasion work and more interest in making their character work, brings up Iron Reflexes. End of topic.

I'm sorry. I don't want to have my very high dexterity/evasion character suddenly turning into a Damage-absorbing tank. It doesn't suit what I've built and it certainly doesn't suit the essence of evasion itself. At least in the case of Chaos Innoculation being the only current defence against chaos damage, every class and build must face the same source of damage equally. Right now, I'm being told that an out-of-character, evasion-breaking keystone is the best hope of making my evasion character work. No. I do not accept that.

My solution is a mix of old territory and new. It hinges around the belief that pure damage reduction as a percentage is the realm of strength/armour, but that something LIKE it can fix evasion and dethrone Iron Reflexes.

I like the idea of evasion granting some sort of last-chance boon, wherein there's a possibility that a lethal blow will instead leave the character at 1 hp (proposed in another thread). Of course, chances are that won't really save you, because in essence completely dodging all damage from one source only to be killed by the next is the same as being reduced to one hp by one source and then being killed by the next.

Dexterity/evasion isn't about not being hit at all, it's about being not-hit more often than someone less adept at evading. So the fact remains: you WILL be hit even with all the evasion in the world (95%, to be precise). Sooner or later, that 5% is going to happen.

And when it does, you die. Unless you blended in some armour, in which case it wasn't the dex/evasion that saved you, it was the str/armour you dipped in.

So here's my proposal; dismantle at will:

It's true that str/armour is the realm of damage reduction, but more specifically, it's the realm of absolute damage reduction -- with Armour, every single incoming source of physical damage is reduced by a percentage. That makes perfect sense. I don't think this means that str/armour owns all forms of damage reduction, however. So what if dex/evasion were to somehow give a percentile chance, after a full evasion has failed, to reduce taken damage? This has been suggested before, in other threads, in that such a mechanic would simulate 'glancing blows' -- but what I also propose is that this mechanic, after it has reduced the damage, inflicts bleeding to simulate the otherwise fatal wound.

Bleeding:

1)doesn't stack but it does hurt

2)can result from any physical source of damage with an edge, point or other means of piercing flesh -- that includes just about every source of physical damage in the game

and

3)Most importantly, doesn't kill you outright.

In short, you'd be trading that certain killing blow for a non-lethal blow with a DoT. It's not really a big buff for evasion but it certainly makes it a bit more viable in a game where the difference between life and death can be a sliver of red.

I don't mind if this has to be a keystone, either, or some other passive bonus node implementation. If something like this were to replace the abomination that is Iron Reflexes, I'd be a very happy man. And yes, this would probably piss some people off, because right now Iron Reflexes is the go-to for high evasion builds to survive. I'm not proposing a nerf of Iron Reflexes -- I'm suggesting it be replaced by a more logical keystone that embodies the essence of evasion.

At the very least, GGG could rename Iron Reflexes and I'd be, if not very happy, slightly less disappointed.

"

So what if dex/evasion were to somehow give a percentile chance, after a full evasion has failed, to reduce taken damage?

Doesn't Iron Reflex's do exactly what you proposed? I am headed toward it, and reading the tooltip I understood it to mean that any damage that you don't avoid is then reduced by the amount of damage reduction that an equivalent amount of armor would give you.

Isn't that exactly what you outlined, except it has a 100% chance to reduce damage?

Maybe I am reading it incorrectly. Does it completely remove your ability to dodge any incoming attack?

Every game I have ever seen attempt an evasion build has done so poorly. The reality of drastic spike damage and one hit kills makes it just impossible to balance well.

Evasion should just be changed to a simpler straight damage reduction, just based on dexterity rather than on strength.

Maybe rename the ironic "Iron Reflexes" into "Roll with the Punches" and give a set damage reduction for any damage that passed through evasion, base this off dexterity or evasion rating...

I thought that's what Iron Reflexes did, now I am not so sure :(

About the name: in my language we use a pretty similar phrase. It means that you don't panic or react when you don't really have to. You are controlling your reflexes with your will. You don't close eyes when a punch is coming for example. (And not losing your vision may be a real advantage in a combat.) I am pretty sure this is what are they trying to tell us by IRON REFLEXES name of keystone.

About the effect: i have no problem with it.

About evasion: Well... I haven't reallly tried a pure evasion build but I have no problem with making evasion work with ES or armor.

@Iscariot: it takes away all your evasion, you are left with that 5% chance to evade.

edit: I forgot - I am not against those suggestions at all (especially with the bleeding thing), pure evasion could become viable that way.

I envisioned iron reflexes not as a matrix style super evade (acrobatics fits that description much better), but as a martial arts type stance where the 2x4s to the torso and bricks to the head leave little more than scuff marks.

Anyhow, rather than changing iron reflexes (which works fine and does whats advertised), how about turning acrobatics into a useful keystone? As is, acrobatics provides a slightly increased chance to avoid snake eyes (the 1-shot death) at the cost of the other defensive measures that might actually prevent snake eyes from being outright fatal.

What id propose (and have done before, in a thread surely long lost) is that acrobatics turn evasion from a % into a user-controlled # resource, represented onscreen as an energy-shield style circle replacement (with an alt color scheme). When activated, all incoming non-spell attacks miss; when not activated, all incoming non-spell attacks hit. The player would have full manual control over the on/off status (hold associated button to activate, release to deactivate). The resource would regenerate slowly after a time of not being used- perhaps starting regneration 5-10 seconds after last use, and fully refilling in 20-30 seconds- making it imperative that the player use it wisely, and preventing any sort of permanent matrix-mode.

This accomplishes two things: One, pure evasion becomes completely viable, right through the endgame (and itd sure make for some fine pvp), and provides a reliable, skill intensive way to avoid those occasional high damage attacks while not being too strong against constant low damage attacks. Two, it transforms acrobatics into a proper keystone skill, greatly altering the way the character is played, and also balances the loss of armor and energy shield with a return of potentially equal value.

The only downside i see is decreased reliablility at high latency, but then again that tends to be an already existing issue for pure dex characters in the first place.

"

Iscariot013 wrote:

"

So what if dex/evasion were to somehow give a percentile chance, after a full evasion has failed, to reduce taken damage?

Doesn't Iron Reflex's do exactly what you proposed? I am headed toward it, and reading the tooltip I understood it to mean that any damage that you don't avoid is then reduced by the amount of damage reduction that an equivalent amount of armor would give you.

Isn't that exactly what you outlined, except it has a 100% chance to reduce damage?

Maybe I am reading it incorrectly. Does it completely remove your ability to dodge any incoming attack?

Every game I have ever seen attempt an evasion build has done so poorly. The reality of drastic spike damage and one hit kills makes it just impossible to balance well.

Evasion should just be changed to a simpler straight damage reduction, just based on dexterity rather than on strength.

Maybe rename the ironic "Iron Reflexes" into "Roll with the Punches" and give a set damage reduction for any damage that passed through evasion, base this off dexterity or evasion rating...

I thought that's what Iron Reflexes did, now I am not so sure :(

"Converts all evasion rating to Armour."

"

KoTao wrote:

I envisioned iron reflexes not as a matrix style super evade (acrobatics fits that description much better), but as a martial arts type stance where the 2x4s to the torso and bricks to the head leave little more than scuff marks.

Anyhow, rather than changing iron reflexes (which works fine and does whats advertised), how about turning acrobatics into a useful keystone? As is, acrobatics provides a slightly increased chance to avoid snake eyes (the 1-shot death) at the cost of the other defensive measures that might actually prevent snake eyes from being outright fatal.

What id propose (and have done before, in a thread surely long lost) is that acrobatics turn evasion from a % into a user-controlled # resource, represented onscreen as an energy-shield style circle replacement (with an alt color scheme). When activated, all incoming non-spell attacks miss; when not activated, all incoming non-spell attacks hit. The player would have full manual control over the on/off status (hold associated button to activate, release to deactivate). The resource would regenerate slowly after a time of not being used- perhaps starting regneration 5-10 seconds after last use, and fully refilling in 20-30 seconds- making it imperative that the player use it wisely, and preventing any sort of permanent matrix-mode.

This accomplishes two things: One, pure evasion becomes completely viable, right through the endgame (and itd sure make for some fine pvp), and provides a reliable, skill intensive way to avoid those occasional high damage attacks while not being too strong against constant low damage attacks. Two, it transforms acrobatics into a proper keystone skill, greatly altering the way the character is played, and also balances the loss of armor and energy shield with a return of potentially equal value.

The only downside i see is decreased reliablility at high latency, but then again that tends to be an already existing issue for pure dex characters in the first place.

True, I have suggested elsewhere that acrobatics somehow take into account dexterity somehow.

Oh, and the matrix thing? Read the flavour test for Iron Reflexes...it's pure Neo/Morpheus:

Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?

Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

I agree with the above poster that iron reflexes does this function... however the solution to add a DoT is new, and a fairly innovative idea.

I'm adamantly against evasion providing straight damage reduction, and in my mind Iron Reflexes must go bye bye. It's a band-aide for a bigger problem, and I totally agree with OP that this keystone destroys the essence of what evasion is.

In another thread I made a suggestion for alternatives, but someone there also commented that keystones should NOT be required by a build to make it viable....

so in that light, evasion should probably innately prevent strings of attacks that would outright kill you in under a particular window of time. Like, you can only take X% total hp in damage over Y time given Z evasion out of E expected evasion rating at this level.

It just should not be possible to die in 1 hit, or even a string of hits that happen at once, if you are an evasion based character.

"

wiggin wrote:

About the name: in my language we use a pretty similar phrase. It means that you don't panic or react when you don't really have to. You are controlling your reflexes with your will. You don't close eyes when a punch is coming for example. (And not losing your vision may be a real advantage in a combat.) I am pretty sure this is what are they trying to tell us by IRON REFLEXES name of keystone.

About the effect: i have no problem with it.

About evasion: Well... I haven't reallly tried a pure evasion build but I have no problem with making evasion work with ES or armor.

@Iscariot: it takes away all your evasion, you are left with that 5% chance to evade.

edit: I forgot - I am not against those suggestions at all (especially with the bleeding thing), pure evasion could become viable that way.

Iron will is the English equivalent of that, I believe, if any such equivalent exists. Not Iron Reflexes. In English, 'Iron reflexes' makes no sense.

I also never thought about the words much...

But when you look at the context of changing reflexes to armor values... it actually makes sense... at least to me.

Reflexes that behave like iron.

Oh, they make sense in *that* way, if you can get your head around the idea of uber-evasion becoming uber-tankiness-via-absorption. But that'd be implying that not only your reflexes turned to iron, but so did your skin.

...And that's not what is really meant here.

All this digging and prying is like picking at a scab, except that for some reason it's not a scab, but a bloody, sticky band-aid underneath which the wound has not healed.