Power Creep and an opportunity for change (rework eternals and mirrors).

The best fix for mirrored items is that once the item get mirrored once, that original item that was mirrored gets a stat called "cannot be mirrored again" and that mirrored stat CANNOT be changed with eternal orbs. this fixes both orbs with one stat.

The orbs aren't broken.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

BiS items are typically uniques, or mirrors themselves. So if the mirrors are making BiS prices go down, then this is good overall for the game with the spread of loot and actively encourages trading. Which is what they wanted. If anybody is hurt from this type of thing it are the people that play constantly and only obtain cheap but useful stuff -- like goldrim. It is almost not worth selling a goldrim in standard because it takes more effort than it'll sell for.

This patch could change that forever, because the oportunity cost for using unique items will go up.

Standard will always be fucked up with enough time, it would be great to make it as slowly as possible.

Also, if something makes looting less exciting, maybe it's broken.

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goetzjam wrote:

So let me get this right, you want to kill the iconic "mirror" because you feel it doesn't fit the game, sorry the whole idea of the mirror fits the game PERFECTLY, in addition it being dropable still gives even us "plebs" something super valuable to loot, which is VERY important.

I feel very torn on this one. On the one hand, I truly believe it doesn't fit the game, unless that "fit" is pushing players towards big economy rather than self-found. Let's face it; from a self-found context, a Mirror is junk, and it only gains its emmense value in the context of massive multi-account cooperation.

On the other hand, it is kind of charmingly OP, in a very elegant way. Part of making a fun game is deciding which rules you've created to snap in half on occasion. You might say it doesn't fit so well that it fits.

However, I'm leaning ever-so-slightly to the "better off with no Mirrors" position.

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goetzjam wrote:

I think etenerals were never really intended to be used like they are now, but rather preserve a rare set of colors on a chest to try out another build or things of that nature. We see the very top being able to craft insane 6 stat items using these eternal orbs, IMO its fine as it helps insure rares remain BiS, even though only the .000001% or whatever can get them.

The original idea for Eternal Orbs was proposed on April 6, 2013 by Courageous, whose intent should be clear as three days later he became one of the first self-found league supporters. As soon as GGG announced they were adding Eternal Orbs to the game, I predicted they would not be used as intended, before they were actually released. Of course, by then it was too late. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

It wasn't hard to predict. It's based on the following commonsense assumptions:
1. People actually use orbs. For crafting. You probably don't, but someone out there does. This should be self-evident, because otherwise orbs would be worthless, regardless of scarcity.
HOWEVER
2. The market ensures that orbs will always find end users with the absolute strongest utility for use. Within Big Economy, people only use orbs on the single most OP application... unless the orbs are plentiful enough to completely satuate the single most OP application... in which case the overflow is applied to the second most OP application. (This is probably not you, which is why you probably don't use them.)

PoE's currency system is horribly imbalanced in this regard; it isn't balanced for the economy at all. 99% of economy participants don't bother using orbs at all (except rolling maps); less than 1% of players use 99% of (non-map-rolling) orbs. (I've suggested a solution in the past, but it's probably too late for this title in the Path of Exile franchise to fix it.)

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NeroNoah wrote:

This patch could change that forever, because the oportunity cost for using unique items will go up.

This I assume you're talking about the new bases and the new highest tiers for item rolls. Yes, there will be some changes, but that doesn't make the uniques any less powerful than they currently are. Heck I use a Kaom's Heart (not the legacy) and still think it's the best possible chest for my build. It will take a bit to shake that. As far as other uniques go, if they're build enablers nothing will change.

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NeroNoah wrote:

Standard will always be fucked up with enough time, it would be great to make it as slowly as possible.

Standard is already quite broken according to most people. I have to ask if that is a problem? This is a loot based game and there is a proliferation of loot. The only solution to that is to play the new leagues. But there is some hope on this front for standard because new bases are coming out as well as a few new mods.

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NeroNoah wrote:

Also, if something makes looting less exciting, maybe it's broken.

I don't see how mirrors make looting less exciting, but thats a personal preference. In fact, I really want to drop a mirror, just to say I have seen one drop. I might have a heart attack if it ever really happens. I remember seeing a youtube of a guy successfully 6 linking on a stream and yelling "Chris Wilson is trying to kill me." I think I might have a similar reaction to a mirror dropping.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Standard is already quite broken according to most people. I have to ask if that is a problem? This is a loot based game and there is a proliferation of loot. The only solution to that is to play the new leagues. But there is some hope on this front for standard because new bases are coming out as well as a few new mods.

Just getting people to farm for the new affixes rather that just expecting that someones crafts the perfect item would be an improvement.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

I don't see how mirrors make looting less exciting, but thats a personal preference. In fact, I really want to drop a mirror, just to say I have seen one drop. I might have a heart attack if it ever really happens. I remember seeing a youtube of a guy successfully 6 linking on a stream and yelling "Chris Wilson is trying to kill me." I think I might have a similar reaction to a mirror dropping.

They as a drop have a giant variance and a lesser drop rate, in comparison to rares. It's a question of hope. Their existence reduces the hope of the people playing the game, and that's bad.

It's just more pleasant to treat each rare as a possibility, rather that just saying "fuck it, I'll save for a mirror item" or waiting a mirror drop. It's not worth to have such reaction for a mirror drop if the price is ruining the feel good thing about looting.

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NeroNoah wrote:

Just getting people to farm for the new affixes rather that just expecting that someones crafts the perfect item would be an improvement.

I craft on a regular basis because I find it more interesting than trying to trade for the new loot. Besides, there are no mirrors for my type of build, I'm far too esoteric. Blood magic which means mana goes out the window, incinerate which means pretty much all damage affixes and crit go out the window. What's left? A prismatic ring with all res, chaos res, cast speed or fire damage (pref cast speed over fire damage) for suffixes, life, and armor % from elreon as prefixes. If you really need another prefix, I suppose rarity might work, but that is highly unnecessary. And prismatic rings don't even drop, so I pretty much have to craft it anyway.

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NeroNoah wrote:

They as a drop have a giant variance and a lesser drop rate, in comparison to rares. It's a question of hope. Their existence reduces the hope of the people playing the game, and that's bad.

I think it should raise the hope of some players more than harm it. It's like winning the lottery. The ultimate in path of exile RNG luck.

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NeroNoah wrote:

It's just more pleasant to treat each rare as a possibility, rather that just saying "fuck it, I'll save for a mirror item" or waiting a mirror drop. It's not worth to have such reaction for a mirror drop if the price is ruining the feel good thing about looting.

Mirrors are worth tons of currency, why would that ruin the feel of looting one? You don't want to get great drops? I'm completely baffled as to what you're trying to say here. The only limb I might be able to extend is that standards economy is so broken that looting is boring. While mirrors might contribute to that, they are by far not the cause. The cause is the proliferation of loot in standard.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Mirrors are worth tons of currency, why would that ruin the feel of looting one? You don't want to get great drops? I'm completely baffled as to what you're trying to say here. The only limb I might be able to extend is that standards economy is so broken that looting is boring. While mirrors might contribute to that, they are by far not the cause. The cause is the proliferation of loot in standard.

Two things: First, mirrors won't stop feeling good even if we restrict how many times an item can be copied (not that it's the best solution, just an example). Second, the mirror feels good at the cost of the rares feeling good. The trade off just sucks.

I'm going to have to disagree with you flat about the rares feeling like they suck because of mirrors. That is misplaced resentment. Rares generally suck because RNG sucks. You're complaining about the wrong system. Uniques are probably your better culprit in this case. Uniques have guaranteed stats and are often build enabling in and of themselves. Couple that with the fact that the most build enabling uniques can be traded for rather cheaply because their drop rate is rather high.

When you compare that to rares which can drop which usually drop with 4-6 mods all of them completely random, and even if you do get good mods might not be on a good base. Like this

If that estoc had been a jeweled foil it would have been usable. Although, not all rares that drop are bad, in fact a couple days ago I dropped something that is very interesting.

Now, it's only got two T1s on it, so it's not godly, but the combination of high armor, life, and dual resistances is extremely nice on a chest piece, even with it not being the best base. It has all my other rare armors beat in raw stats. In fact, I'd probably be using it, if I didn't like my Kaom's Heart so much better.

It's not mirrors per se, it's the feeling that beyond some point the only upgrade will be a mirror gear, or that once you got that item, there are not upgrades. Ideally, you want to make almost impossible to get a perfect item for a slot. That adds replayability to the game (theoretically), because people would identify in the search of that elusive good item.

GGG is buffing rares, so I expect less unique usage, solving the BIS problem partially. We'll see how it goes. Also, you can't use only uniques, with few exceptions anyway.

If you can't see that, well, I have nothing else to say. Let's agree to disagree.

Fun fact: there was another thread discussing that Kaom's Heart is not really worth to use.