Power Creep and an opportunity for change (rework eternals and mirrors).

No one seems to have started a thread on this, so I'll be the one: the higher level affixes will suck, at least for some part of the playerbase.

It's evident that adding the new affixes will decrease the economical value of the items, so it will hurt for those that have them. Everyone should have some empathy for them (at least not the cheaters or exploiters, but they are probably a minority anyway).

Also, it (seemingly) contradicts GGG statements about not devaluating items with new expansions (the exact wording was something like "we don't want to expand the game vertically unless there is no other direction to grow"). The only reason I'm not outraged about this is because of other statement that you probably can remember (something "we want to make rare items more worthy"), so the directions of this changes are to bring more opportunity costs to unique usage at higher levels (except for the addition of new tiers to weapon damage, I guess). If someone can find the links (I couldn't) to those statements it would be great, :)

That being said, this is a great opportunity to change one of the major flaws in the game. Since the introduction of Eternal Orbs (and in combination with Mirrors), the game has shifted from looting expecting to find something valuable to just saving to buy mirror gear (at least for standard). Some of you are probably fine with this, but the result is a less exciting loot game for almost everyone, and that sucks.

It's time to rework those two orbs (for example, limiting how many times an item can be mirrored). Now that the mirrored items will not be top tier (with some exceptions), this will reduce the quantity of "legacy" items that will be generated by that change. Also, it will probably reduce the economic impact on those people with mirror gear, because it will take a lot of time to obtain better items than that. That way at least it will hurt less for everyone.

I have no real stakes on this, nor I'm the only one proposing those changes (Ceri was saying that already in the State of the Beta thread), but it seems worthwhile to consider.

TL;DR Kill (or better, rework) Eternal Orbs and Mirrors now that most mirror gear will become second tier.

Further read:

http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/2au9jc/discussion_pros_and_cons_of_mirror_of_kalandra/

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/543478/page/1

So let me get this right, you want to kill the iconic "mirror" because you feel it doesn't fit the game, sorry the whole idea of the mirror fits the game PERFECTLY, in addition it being dropable still gives even us "plebs" something super valuable to loot, which is VERY important.

I think etenerals were never really intended to be used like they are now, but rather preserve a rare set of colors on a chest to try out another build or things of that nature. We see the very top being able to craft insane 6 stat items using these eternal orbs, IMO its fine as it helps insure rares remain BiS, even though only the .000001% or whatever can get them.

I think increasing the mods doesn't seem like the right direction, unless said mods are specifically on the new bases. Without having higher mods on the new bases very few people would consider crafting for them, with an increase SPECIFICALLY that applies to said bases, it enables these people that have had 6 t1 mirror items and have wealth beyond "measure" to have some fun in crafting some of the new items, without it the market stays the same way it is now.

If you are playing on standard you should be viewing the changes GGG is doing as a blessing as the cost of current T1 mirrored unqiues will decrease in price and any T1 unqiues that sockets are becoming less then ideal will decrease. This means you should be able to get them for significantly cheaper then the cost is now.

I don't think we have all the information on the new mod rolls do we? If its 5-10% increase then it isn't that big of a deal for us "scrubs"


But like I said before this really is specifically a standard issue, I think for the most part eternals are used for what they should be in temp leagues. It is standard that they are allowed to accumulate (because less of need to reserve imprints and stuff for colors, links, ect) masses to roll these gears, but like I said IMO it is perfectly fine as it helps the check and balance of rares vs uniques.

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but the result is a less exciting loot game for almost everyone

So does removing the chance for legacy items to drop or having league specific items tied behind huge pay walls or having temp leagues dump into standard making mid tier unqiues or other items worth much less. Point is just because you think looting in standard is ruined because of eternals or mirrors doesn't mean it actually is. I'd love for you to show us an example of something YOU looted that would be "super valuable" if it wasn't for eternals.

tl;dr no don't remove mirrors or limit them no matter what, eternals maybe slightly increase the rarity, but I like them.

Since you don't like standard, go play the temp leagues... that is what they are for.

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Soulsniper wrote:

Since you don't like standard, go play the temp leagues... that is what they are for.

Not everyone wants to play in temp leagues or have the time in order to progress a character in a reasonable amount of time.

I probably spend 50\50 of my time in standard and leagues as I want variety in my gameplay.


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Also slightly confused OP, is your highest character really level 73 or did you delete one at some point. If you haven't you have a long way to go to progress your character both in gear and levels before mirrored gear\eternals will have an effect on you.

I've said I have no stakes on this.

Also, the economical effects of Eternal + Mirrors are well documented. I don't need proofs.

(if you ask I play mostly temporal leagues, I had a busy year but I'm returning for Act IV when it goes live, but so much people have made the same points of my post that I don't think I need that much experience to post about this)

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NeroNoah wrote:

I've said I have no stakes on this.

Also, the economical effects of Eternal + Mirrors are well documented. I don't need proofs.

(if you ask I play mostly temporal leagues, I had a busy year but I'm returning for Act IV when it goes live, but so much people have made the same points of my post that I don't think I need that much experience to post about this)

Considering your whole argument is against eternals and mirrors proofs is needed :D

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goetzjam wrote:

Considering your whole argument is against eternals and mirrors proofs is needed :D

Here are two random threads with some top players arguing against it (and implying other ones are against it too, like Invalesco, and explaining how drops and crafting were better before):

http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/2au9jc/discussion_pros_and_cons_of_mirror_of_kalandra/

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/543478/page/1

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NeroNoah wrote:

I've said I have no stakes on this.

Also, the economical effects of Eternal + Mirrors are well documented. I don't need proofs.

Any argument must be substantiated by some proof. If you have no stake in it, and lack the experience, then your words are merely parroting what others have said before. This is a hollow argument that you won't even understand.

My real opinion on the matter is that because crafting is so hard to do in path of exile, people with the ability to do it effectively are cursed by the 99% that aren't able to do it. Don't believe me? Well if eternals, exalts, and mirrors were just as common as chaos orbs we wouldn't have any of these problems with mirrors being "bad" for the economy -- we'd have a much different problem, gear has no worth.

To sum it up, either way you go, the longer you play in a game where there is only items being dumped in, such as standard, there will be significant amounts of item devaluation. And people want the best right? In that sense having a mirrored object available might indeed be exactly what you want. So what's the problem?

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ghoulavenger wrote:

"

NeroNoah wrote:

I've said I have no stakes on this.

Also, the economical effects of Eternal + Mirrors are well documented. I don't need proofs.

Any argument must be substantiated by some proof. If you have no stake in it, and lack the experience, then your words are merely parroting what others have said before. This is a hollow argument that you won't even understand.

My real opinion on the matter is that because crafting is so hard to do in path of exile, people with the ability to do it effectively are cursed by the 99% that aren't able to do it. Don't believe me? Well if eternals, exalts, and mirrors were just as common as chaos orbs we wouldn't have any of these problems with mirrors being "bad" for the economy -- we'd have a much different problem, gear has no worth.

To sum it up, either way you go, the longer you play in a game where there is only items being dumped in, such as standard, there will be significant amounts of item devaluation. And people want the best right? In that sense having a mirrored object available might indeed be exactly what you want. So what's the problem?

The problem is people think that eternals and mirrors hurt the little guy, they don't from an economic standpoint. From a clearspeed standpoint maybe mirrors have some effect because those that have invested time into getting one of these copies can typically kill faster then those that don't.

That being said this issue is the .0001% fighting with the .0000001% and doesn't really involve anyone below that, pretty much ever.

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the gap between people who can afford crafting and those wo can't has increased substantially

That was the most important phrase that was linked in the second one he posted and its so much less true now then when it was said. Which is surprising right? Shouldn't the whole idea of the gap being further actually constantly increase? If that was the case how in the world is the gap actually smaller now, the simple answer is masters. The other answer is other weapons (unqiues) that don't make mirrored daggers or wands somehow the most desired for everyone.



People like to use the word power creep as always some sort of negative thing, in this case GGG is increasing the top level content and introducing a whole new set of base items with implicit properties specific to them (aka no unqiues) in this case rares literally can (and will be) better then unqiues, quite simply because there will be no unqiue counterparts to them.


Then again, this whole idea that somehow a level 75 character (or whatever) is affected in standard because of eternals and mirrors is asinine, only if you find one will you be affected by it, the economical impacts are limited to that and only that for a player that hasn't reached a point where he is actually even geared for endgame.

This is probably my favourite post about the issue (from the thread I linked):

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Lyralei wrote:

Unfortunately, the only thing Eternals ever did for the game was to lower the value of found rares both in monetary terms and appreciation. Back in the day, this sword was considered extremely good. Now its just an "Eh.." item because creating the ideal weapon is easily achievable.

A real shame because I admired the best items knowing that so much effort went into making them. Invalesco used to burn through many a titanium spirit shield trying to get the dream one. I think he would look at this and shake his head.