Feedback and Suggestions (Path of Exile 1) - Stringing on the Kickstarter customer, or Why this game needs to die - Forum

" ScrotieMcB wrote: Do I want more of this title? Emphatically, no! Perhaps PoE 2, but I've had enough PoE 1, kthx. So I'd like to ask all of you a favor: if you are thinking about being a Supporter, please decide against it. [Removed by Support] German saying: Schönheit und Funktionalität in Sekundenschnelle zu ruinieren, ist dem wahren Dilettanten keine Herausforderung! torturo: "Though, I'm really concerned, knowing by practice the capabilities of the balance team." top2000: "let me bend your rear for a moment exile" Last edited by Jared_GGG#0000 on Feb 12, 2015, 5:12:58 PM	Posted by 666lol666#3140 on Feb 12, 2015, 3:42:08 PM Quote this Post
I have to say I agree with just about everything the OP has said. There's a reason it's been so long since I've purchased a "supporter pack", and it isn't because I can't afford it. Never wrestle with a pig. You'll only get muddy, and the pig likes it! Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience! "De plumber fixes de sync with de wrench." - Robert_Paulson	Posted by GodlyMe#1920 on Feb 12, 2015, 4:14:02 PM Quote this Post
" raics wrote: I'm ignoring them because you most likely don't know what you're talking about (or at least what I'm talking about), those boss fights you listed aren't tactical at all with the exception of Atziri, and you forgot the only other one that is - shock and horror. Not to mention I wasn't referring to boss fights at all but to playstyle in general. Bosses are something you do occasionally, in case of Atziri maybe not at all. But, as long as you mentioned boss fights, just think about why Domino fight isn't tactical and Shock 'n Horror is. Versus Domino you're doing what you normally do, you're avoiding damaging projectiles and trying to avoid standing next to dangerous enemies for too long. However, for shock and horror your whole approach is different, you're actively trying to make it waste its laser and then use the window of opportunity to attack it. Hell, if Oak was stronger and his immortal call protected him from all damage he would be a more tactical fight than Domino. Oh, and countering stuff on your setup level isn't tactical playing, it's something expected in a good RPG of any sort regardless of having tactical combat. Fine, let's go a different direction because preparing for battle clearly doesn't involves much as much tactics as engaging (/s). But cool, just ignore all that because I'm sure when you make a character it's completely random with no fights considered. What in CB gave you the impression of tactical fights being added? The "hardest" packs were rhaos and leapers because of the burst damage and stun potential (which is why everyone used chayula or US). Like I said earlier Brutus and Vaal were the hardest bosses and they're dirt simple, we consider the buffed up Vaals before Atziri a joke now-a-days. And don't give me a list of things that could have been added because of suggestions, we can go through our post history 2 years ago and see a ton of people suggesting stupid shit, never any hint of it being added. So even if you think the game is mindless now, I fail to see how it was more complex then. Finished 17th in Rampage - Peaked at 11th Finished 18th in Torment/Bloodline 1mo Race - peaked at 9th Null's Inclination Build 2.1.0 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1559063 Summon Skeleton 1.3 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1219856	Posted by Moosifer#0314 on Feb 12, 2015, 6:13:13 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
Garr0t " Garr0t wrote: Yay, more quotes! It is actually becoming quite clear where the line is being drawn in the sand, and I think it's been worthwhile learning about both perspectives. Let's keep it objective. Knowing some of the founding developers cited Magic:The Gathering (MtG) as an inspiration for game design, I was expecting something deeper than what we have. I don't play MtG, but I do mess around in Hearthstone. In card games, there is a lot of thought in how to build your deck. Including certain cards and understanding synergies between cards is critical. This is represented by the passive tree and the strategic planning of a build. Building your card collection is the itemization/loot finding component. The deck build and how it integrates with your preferred play style is what I have now come to understand is what attracts people to these types of games. There are multiple approaches to building decks to suit multiple styles of playing face, control, ramp, zoo, etc. Now, I know the analogy breaks down because in card games you are playing against another human (PvP anyone?), whereas in PoE PvE it's us against a relatively basic AI. Playing the 'card game' in PoE is where I feel let down. There are a lot of skills/passive combinations available, and you can build extremely complex decks (builds), but there are very few ways mechanically to play at a high level (end game). They all involve AoE and mobility. There's no tactical depth to the actual play. No need to lay out a slow to buy time to cast that nuke. No need to stun so you can back out to range to get optimal damage. No need to blind so you can close and wallop them with your 2-hander. " raics wrote: ...Anyway, you probably get the idea, these are gameplay tactics oriented, not build or stat oriented, and seeing those here means there are people interested in playing the game like that. I'm not saying here that 'assassin bonus' would trump pewpewing in any way, but the option would be there for those that want it. Now tell me how many mechanics in the vein of these did we get since closed beta? Probably just one - proximity shield. ... People that use multiple skills most often do it because they want to, not because they need to.I know I'm sometimes trying very hard to populate the ol' action bar with something that I'll want to use at least sometimes. And then I see screenshots of people with just one skill on right click and the rest of action bar 'populated' with auras and my inner kung-fu panda leaves to make tofu. Italics and emphasis mine. This is precisely how I feel. " Boem wrote: On this particular subject, i think current skill diversity when hold in a light of "efficiency" is in a good spot. Everybody needs in order to be efficient 1) single target 2) aoe attack 3) movement This can be augmented by 1) curses 2) decoy ability 3) power move (vaal skills) And all of this is coupled with flasks So in therms of availability we got plenty. The only problem i see with this observation is the mob composition and the low requirements to alternate out of your AOE attack. This is probably one of the reasons why phylacteral link was introduced, to force a player into a position where his single target becomes highly relevant. And just look at the out-cry GGG got for trying that :D. With better monster composition or AI/ability's this problem could also be solved, obviously this piggy backs on the whole AOE-UBBER-ALLES sentiment. Peace, -Boem- Here, I again agree that I expected to rotate or utilize conditional or situatational skills or tactics in actual play. Playing PoE is like playing something-something-AoE vs rock/paper/scissors. AoE always wins. What's the point in spending my creative time and effort trying to utilize niche or rarely used skills when they invariably can't get into maps? I'm almost starting to think the barrier to entry into maps isn't a gear check. It's an AoE check. If you can't clear the mobs before you get one shot, re-roll! Yeah, this is going to be a regurgitation of the AoE vs single target debate. " raics wrote: Oh, and countering stuff on your setup level isn't tactical playing, it's something expected in a good RPG of any sort regardless of having tactical combat. The way PoE's mechanics have evolved, there is no alternative to AoE spamming. Yeah, you can use different skills to AoE spam, but it's still one button mashing with the occasional need to move or pop a flask to mitigate that incoming damage spike. Not my idea of a fun time. " Moosifer wrote: Personally I would be happiest if all I had to do was right click, most of my builds are designed to be as such. Precisely. Either you're a hearthstone noob or don't do well. There's like 5-10 decks max at one time, 3-4 being the top decks which you'll see in 90% of your games and probably will be playing them yourself. The difference between many decks is less than 10 cards, even for radically different playstyles. Look at midrange hunter vs facehunter for example (pre-undertaker nerf as I haven't played since) you don't know which you're facing until turn 3 most times, basically until arcane golem or wolfrider hit, that's how similar these decks are. So the variety you're clinging to doesn't exist in your example for utopia either. I'd argue there's more variety here because you can take an unviable skill to end game, I spend most of my time doing that and guys like raizqt does it in HC. Finished 17th in Rampage - Peaked at 11th Finished 18th in Torment/Bloodline 1mo Race - peaked at 9th Null's Inclination Build 2.1.0 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1559063 Summon Skeleton 1.3 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1219856	Posted by Moosifer#0314 on Feb 12, 2015, 6:19:11 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
" Moosifer wrote: What in CB gave you the impression of tactical fights being added? So even if you think the game is mindless now, I fail to see how it was more complex then. Never said it was, check my posts :) Actually, in my first one you can see me saying I'm not really disappointed with the overall experience, so it's not really the matter of getting worse, it's about failing to improve. And I'm not sharing in any buyer's remorse in this thread, any money I gave was because I liked what we had at the time. In that post I also acknowledged that we received very few stone-hard promises so there's little reason for outrage. Anyway, the game went other places, it has more than what it had before. Unfortunately, most of it is fluff to me, and more fluff in the end isn't really more, if you think about it. I'm not saying the game is completely brain-dead, this isn't Dungeon Siege 3, it's just missing those rough edges I liked, that manual gearbox. If you're familiar with shooters, our ArmA grew into Battlefield, it's still not CoD but it's not ArmA anymore either. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs. ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]►	Posted by raics#7540 on Feb 12, 2015, 6:52:48 PM Quote this Post
" Moosifer wrote: Either you're a hearthstone noob or don't do well. Both! ;-) "We were going to monitor the situation but it was in the wrong aspect ratio."	Posted by Garr0t#3474 on Feb 12, 2015, 8:02:06 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
I only read Scrotie's OP, not the next 19 pages. Well said Scrotie. While there are some aspects that I disagree fundamentally with you on, I am aligned with your sentiment. For me, I have got more value out of my support to PoE than the vast majority of other things I spend money on in life. That being said, the PoE that I see today isn't one that I am prepared to incrementally support. I hope that changes. I am a big fan of Chris and the team. P.	Posted by mrpetrov#7089 on Feb 13, 2015, 6:02:17 AM Alpha Member Quote this Post
From another thread... " Snorkle_uk wrote: also theres a thread on this board i will not post in because I dont want to bump a cancerous, vile thread like that. Interesting strategy. " Snorkle_uk wrote: But I will say to you, and you know who you are, just leave. You dont like this game then go, dont sit around on these forums trying to damage the game, encourage players to stop funding GGG and put them out of a job/us out of a game. You are free to dislike the game and the model, but all you are doing is trying to destroy the game for what? I don't see myself as trying to destroy a game or anyone's job. Frankly, it should be so obvious that I really shouldn't have to say it but: if you are actually thoroughly happy with the game as it is now, then do whatever you want. Seriously. If you read my OP and think the first 80% is bullshit, then obviously by your standards the last little request is too. It is to those nodding to the first 80% that I was making the suggestion. " Snorkle_uk wrote: You always were and always will be a net negative to the community, Harsh. " Snorkle_uk wrote: go find another game and leave the people who you dont like playing the game you dont like because actually, they enjoy it and you trying to break that out of spite or your own personal take on morality or whatever the hell is fueling you to come here is absolutely childish and disgusting. this is the best ARPG ever made, to the point where people who dont like it want the game to die so GGG can make PoE2 instead because this game is so much better than any other ARPG ever conceived that the idea that any other developer could even match this game, let alone make a better one is absurd... thats why you want PoE2 and you are not off looking for a better game from a different developer. I don't consider it absurd, I consider it inevitable. A "best ARPG of the millenium" award seems premature. I admit that the most likely developer to make a better ARPG than PoE is GGG themselves. However, this is because the "other developer" majority is split so many different ways. In any case, as this forum is that of the apparent frontrunner, it makes the most sense to discuss the evolution - or devolution - of the genre here. " Snorkle_uk wrote: Thats also why you need to get your trash talking and hairy fairy daydreamer ideas in check, this game is nothing short of a miracle, its a monolith of brilliance in a desert of turd that is the modern gaming industry A steaming turd at that. But is that an excuse to lower one's ideals? I mean, hell, I understand pragmatics, one often chooses a lesser of two evils, but do I really need to label a lesser evil as good besides? " Snorkle_uk wrote: and you would tear it down Because apparently I am the Incredible Hulk or something. Let's get real: I could hit GGG as hard as I could, it won't make them go under. I am but one voice, influencing but a tiny segment. I'm not killing GGG here. Nor do I even want to. I just want them to move on. " Snorkle_uk wrote: Beause of your own childish whimsy, nitpicking and inability to appreciate whats realistically achievable? Seriously, grow up, whens the last time you ever created anything anyone else gave a shit about? There are a few anyone elses in this thread. Hell, I get PMs thanking me for posting. But admittedly, I don't create much else. " Snorkle_uk wrote: Creative industries arnt about mr special snowflake and his single minded vision, thats called jerking off, creative people who have a job and do something that other people actually give a shit about dont sit around jerking off all day. They understand that art is communication, if what they create is to have any relevance beyond their own bedroom then they need to be able to understand the people they are communicating with and tailor what they are doing accordingly. No one will ever understand everything the artist is feeling, no 2 people are the same, but if the artist wants to convey the bulk of what is in his head to other people in a way they will get it, sometimes he needs to put things in their terms, not his own. Thats not being a sellout, thats not pandering to the masses, thats being an adult, a professional and a realist who understands the universe doesnt revolve around his little bubble and actually having an amazing game that is played by 100,000s of people around the world and lives up to many of their game design preferences is a more worthy pursuit than sitting in your bedroom with an idea of your perfect game that no one else wants to play. Except it wasn't a game no one else wanted to play. You are pretending that GGG's original, minimally-filtered message of the hardcore ARPG failed to resonate with anyone, while there was a small but borderline rabid group of devoted fans, with which GGG shared its vision and expectations. That vision, those expectations were not met, because instead of making a game played by, well, no one really knows, but at least thousands, GGG did the "professional" thing and made concessions so they could aim for millions. Which, all value judgments aside, is textbook selling out. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Feb 14, 2015, 6:33:34 AM	Posted by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Feb 14, 2015, 6:25:36 AM Quote this Post
I wonder why the need exist's to judge GGG. None of us have the full picture here or truly know the motivations behind any and all actions they do. What i mean with this is if you consider there actions "selling out to the original concept", is there no chance of there being a redeeming reason for doing so? From my perspective everything evolves naturally and nature is not limited by projections, if anything i always think of nature as chaos substantiated. You know what i mean with this, make a projection for yourself scrotie based on a one year's time frame and then see if it becomes a reality or if you diverge from that projection. Then imagine somebody judging you without realizing all expects of your life like you know them that have put you in the place you are hypothetically in after that year. It would hold little relevance and no meaning i think. I can personally think of a lot of redeeming reasons why they are opting for the route they currently walk and a lot of them involve not letting down there initial player-base. Then again, i am a faithful and happy fool. This thread does make me question the premise, will a PoE2 be any different or more what you desire? And if so, what makes you come to that conclusion, obviously PoE1 would be it's foundation, it stands to reason PoE2 will be more of the same on a better foundation. Who say's GGG will not simply reiterate what they have done before and make (in your eyes) the same mistakes? Just curious i suppose, i find this thread odd and like mentioned before nothing more then a veiled insult towards GGG. People are perfectly capable to insult others while having good intentions. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes	Posted by Boem#2861 on Feb 14, 2015, 6:58:40 AM On Probation Quote this Post
I have been refraining myself from this thread, as it contains much I do not feel qualified to discuss. Nonetheless, I did still want to welcome you back, even if for a short while. The only thing on-topic I'll touch, is this... " ScrotieMcB wrote: Which, all value judgments aside, is textbook selling out. ...I can agree with; however, they did their selling out with admirably minimal compromise (by comparison), and PoE is still a game I very much want to play. If nothing else, I still view this game as a flagship, in the spotlight and representing what other developers can do without dealing with the devil(s). The things that disappoint me the most, I think, have little to do with this, but more to do with making and having to live with poor balance decisions (e.g., the erosion that lead to ES no longer being ES). Otherwise, many of the core values that initially attracted me are still present. Notably, free with no pay to win, and a diverse sandbox meta game (theory crafting; a game I too still play). Of those, my only gripe is their propensity to mimic M:tG's rotational meta--something that works for a card game because it is a whole new game every ~12 months, but feels forced and with little merit here. At any rate, most of these things I attribute to lack of experience, and to that end I'd far prefer GGG continue to make mistakes from PoE while it is still viable, learn from those mistakes, and implement their lessons in future projects. To be totally honest, I'm not yet sure if I trust GGG not to make the same mistakes again, and I very much want to play another title of their development. That is to say, it is too soon. Devolving Wilds Land “T, Sacrifice Devolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and reveal it. Then shuffle your library.”	Posted by CanHasPants#3515 on Feb 14, 2015, 6:58:47 AM Quote this Post