Stringing on the Kickstarter customer, or Why this game needs to die

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Boem wrote:

This thread does make me question the premise, will a PoE2 be any different or more what you desire?

Good question. If I have any experience with sequels to pretty much anything made in last decade or so, its chances are slim.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

That vision, those expectations were not met, because instead of making a game played by, well, no one really knows, but at least thousands, GGG did the "professional" thing and made concessions so they could aim for millions.

Which, all value judgments aside, is textbook selling out.

I'm so confused by this thread. Where did they sell out? They've held firmly on many issues that people hate them for, shit the discussion we're having on the death penalty for example. That's a topic that has been bitched about since CB yet has been nerfed to calm down some but not removed to keep their vision.

Was there a big thread where GGG laid out what they planned to do and the last year has been the opposite? I'm just lost as it seems they've done a good job of giving in to the casual fanbase, which is expected, while staying true to their original plans.

If this is just personal opinions, the game has gone away from what you wanted, so be it. But to say it's gone away from GGG's vision, that requires some citation.

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Moosifer wrote:

They've held firmly on many issues that people hate them for, shit the discussion we're having on the death penalty for example.

Thank the seven for that, the slap in the face hurts but there should be some palpable repercussion. I'd prefer it to be the loss of survival bonus or something, sacred-style, but this is fine too.

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Moosifer wrote:

Where did they sell out?

IMO they never sold out, a bunch of high profile CB/OB supporters are just salty that THEIR vision for the game is not GGG's vision for the game. Many of them appear to have supported on a faulty premise i.e. that their support meant that the game would go in a direction they wanted.

I've been playing since day one of OB and I haven't seen any significant shift in the overall vision for the game. Sure, there are things that could be handled better, but the salty QQ is unwarranted.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

You always were and always will be a net negative to the community,

Harsh.

Nope, spot on. At this point you are just being cancerous to the community, please leave.

Gonna write down some assumptions that relate to this thread.

What if GGG set out to make a niche game for a niche crowd, it worked and was thriving.

With the failure we know call D3 however, they saw an opportunity and like any smart business man would do, they embraced this and used it to there advantage.

Multiple assumptions can be made why such a route is plausible, likely.

1) overall funds in a long term strategy
2) pressure of the CEO to provide payment and sustain a dozen if not more family's, not ignoring the permanent cost's associated with development and maintenance
3) company exposure or RP route

All of these would justify moving away from the original design goal in favor of providing that original goal at a later date but with a healthier company to back it up.

I don't find it unreasonable to consider GGG might in a few years time return to there original niche design and make a new game based around that concept, while keeping PoE running to facilitate both projects.

This would remove part of the pressure of relying on a niche crowd fund plan alone, which is in my opinion an unstable form of funds.(from a CEO's perspective that is after all still running a business and has to sustain family's and take responsibility for his actions)

They could have also potentially taken the route they are walking now in favor of more funds, but not because they are greedy but because of necessity. We know for a fact that they are still looking for people to work at GGG, it might have been the case that the payment they where offering simply did not convince people in the position they are looking for to come over to the NZ to work at GGG's office.

Say what you want, but a better pay-check is often a solid motivator to make people move or consider a position.

Honestly i can think of a dozen reasons why the current model and route is more beneficial for GGG in the long run and that's why i can't really hold it against them. Even if i personally enjoy the core "hardcore" experience more and am more of an "original target audience" of them. I still enjoy myself and i hope if they continue to make smart choices we will eventually see something worth-while and maybe even a development of a niche game some of the people in this thread desire.
(backed up by an established company that is)



All assumptions, but i don't consider them unreasonable.

Peace,

-Boem-

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BerMalBerIst1 wrote:

The OP seems to have a renewed and refreshed sense of self-entitlement after his hiatus, it seems.

You could insert this comment into any internet argument ever. And many posters seem to make it their hobby to do so, for whatever reason.

'You just feel entitled' is an intellectually barren, meaningless and effortless attempt to refute criticism without actually addressing the points that were brought up.

It is more cancerous than any design element of PoE ever could be.

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CanHasPants wrote:

I have been refraining myself from this thread, as it contains much I do not feel qualified to discuss. Nonetheless, I did still want to welcome you back, even if for a short while.

The only thing on-topic I'll touch, is this...

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Which, all value judgments aside, is textbook selling out.

...I can agree with; however, they did their selling out with admirably minimal compromise (by comparison), and PoE is still a game I very much want to play. If nothing else, I still view this game as a flagship, in the spotlight and representing what other developers can do without dealing with the devil(s).

The things that disappoint me the most, I think, have little to do with this, but more to do with making and having to live with poor balance decisions (e.g., the erosion that lead to ES no longer being ES). Otherwise, many of the core values that initially attracted me are still present. Notably, free with no pay to win, and a diverse sandbox meta game (theory crafting; a game I too still play). Of those, my only gripe is their propensity to mimic M:tG's rotational meta--something that works for a card game because it is a whole new game every ~12 months, but feels forced and with little merit here.

At any rate, most of these things I attribute to lack of experience, and to that end I'd far prefer GGG continue to make mistakes from PoE while it is still viable, learn from those mistakes, and implement their lessons in future projects. To be totally honest, I'm not yet sure if I trust GGG not to make the same mistakes again, and I very much want to play another title of their development. That is to say, it is too soon.

I like this post. I hadn't really commented on how temporary leagues, massive passive tree changes, and a slew of new uniques makes temp leagues feel like the Standard format in MtG.

I don't think it is too soon to start development. At a minimum you'd want GGG to start 1 year before an open beta. More likely 2.

Agree with everything you said Scrotie. For me, PoE is dead. The game I thought it was going to be in CB - a game much like D2 without the gold sinks and an interesting/fun crafting system - never materialized. I still have NO idea why they got rid of gold for these orbs, orbs that are incredibly rare and are drowned in RNG, they could have just kept gold in and let us enchant things in town with RNG and the effect would have been the same, I really think they squandered an amazing idea.

Uniques got way out of hand, and became to much of a focus.

The 'economy' is a joke (assuming you're an adult with a full time job and interests outside of grinding in 1 video game) - that is not an insult at those who can/do enjoy the grind and investment of time, if I were 15 I'd probably feel much different.


All that said though, if GGG make a different game 10 years from now, I will surely give it a go and hope they have learned from their mistakes.

Um. That's what he said.

Go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200 (house rules ^-^)