Stringing on the Kickstarter customer, or Why this game needs to die

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

GGG knows what they need to do regarding the economy. Chris has stated that the economy is the most important part of PoE to them, as it should be: a healthy economy demonstrates itemization balance as players strive for wildly different gear sets,

I disagree that the economy should be the most important part. I think the players having fun is the most important part. For some, that will mean trading. For others, trading is irrelevant or even anathema to fun.

*If* economy is to be a key part of the game, the player needs to have the option to actually produce something. Gathering is not the same as manufacturing. I'll explain - let's take the vendors out of the orb buying equation. So Yeena for instance, will no longer sell Jeweler's orbs. You can craft them out of Alteration orbs yourself. The chance isn't 100% though. Your character may start out with a 5% chance to succeed in crafting a Jeweler's orb, and after each success, have a random chance to get 1% better. Dedicated Jewelers (crafting players) would have high success rates and could buy alts and convert them for a profit. The end result Jeweler's Orb would have to have much higher success rate than current orbs though.

The crafting benches could function similarly - with drop only found crafting gems that level up with experience from success and each grant a different mod.

Without any means of production, PoE will only have the crudest of economies - a barter system. The current "crafting" system is just a matter of having the enough of the right orbs + Luck, and is not really production.

Then we'd need real in game shops - none of this trade bulletin board junk. People would buy other's gear, set up a physical shop and try to get others in. Retailers are a big part of a thriving economy. An economy without retail is like a bicycle with flat tires. You can make it go, but it will never go fast or be comfortable.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

and indicates the currency system is resilient against botting/RMT. However, they did not do this: instead, they employed a barebones rare affix system leading to homogenized high-end gear, and allowed bots to stack currency with a criminally high Ex stack size. At this point, fixing these issues is much impossible.

GGG knows what they need to do regarding unique item design. Mark_GGG stated that a good unique should be something you eventually upgrade past, ensuring that you still can upgrade your gear and thus have something to look forward to. However, they did not do this: instead, they released a slew of build-around-me uniques, like Shavs and Mjolner and Cloak of Defiance, for which any form of replacement would utterly destroy the build in question. It is too late to do anything about this now. Because legacy items.

I know GGG would like rares to beat out uniques, but consider what you mentioned above:

"itemization balance as players strive for wildly different gear sets"

Isn't "Wildly Different" part of the appeal of uniques? Shavronne's and Solaris Lorica offer something different from any rare. No rare item is ever going to make certain builds work the way they do just by stats alone.

The fact that no rare gear is competing with Shavronne's isn't a fault of the unique. A unique item should do something different. As you state it, the bare bones affix (essentially stat boosters for the most part)is a big chunk of why rares get beat so often.

(consistency in total package is the one area uniques will probably always have over rares)



If GGG allowed "Chaos damage cannot bypass energy shield" or other unique type mods as a random rare property, there could be some serious head on collisions with balancing. I think GGG would need to attach new powerful rare mods to specific item types or a limited range of item types, and only 1 per item, to avoid creating Midgard Serpent scale monstrosities.


GGG could develop some rare only special affixes that add some special flavour and usage that fits with the item base thematically or practically:

For instance:

Full Dragonscale armour could have a chance to get the "Fire Breather" affix,
which converts 5% of elemental fire damage taken by the wearer (before resistances) into mana for the wearer. It could also possibly get the "Flametongue" affix, in which fire damage done by the user has 5% fire penetration and any monster directly in front of the armour wearer has a 10% chance per second to be subject to a flame totem type attack that builds up like incineration. These mods would not be available as random affixes on any other armours, or on unique or blue armours.

Full Wyrmscale could have possibility of mana draining opponents, or user intentionally utilizing much higher mana costs per cast to increase spell damage.



Eternal Swords could have a chance to get a "Chaos Pact" rare mod

Chaos Pact of Enmity restores 3-9 life, 2-4 mana on Enemy Death and boosts total life and mana by 2pts each per kill for 3 seconds per kill (cumulative running total) up to 50% of initial total life and mana.

Chaos Pact of Malice restores 4-12 life, 3-7 mana on Enemy Death and boosts total life and mana by 3pts each per killfor 4 seconds per kill (cumulative running total) up to 100% of initial total life and mana.

Chaos Pact of Malevolence restores 6-13 life, 3-9 mana on Enemy Death and boosts total life and mana by 1% of enemy life/mana per kill for 4 seconds per kill (cumulative running total) to 200% of initial total life and mana. Character gains 1% of enemy killed strength/dex/intelligence for 5 seconds after last kill up to 300% initial stats.

Once maximum stats are reached, Chaos Pact goes into cool down for five times as long as it was activce. When temporary bonus stats expire (from kill timer) player's life and mana are reduced to 1 and no life/mana leeching or gained on hit will work until timer resets.


.................

In addition to special mods for specific item types, hybrid mods could be available as rare affixes (starting with the third mod (and not blues, so they can't be easily ALT rolled) could have combo stats that synergize.

For instance a rare third+ affix boot prefix could be "Agility"
"Fleet" Base movement velocity +12-24% , 1-2% chance to dodge attacks, 4-5% chance to avoid stun

"Lithe" Base movement velocity +18-32%,2-3% chance to dodge attacks, 5-7% chance to avoid stun

"Agile" Base movement velocity +28-38%,2-4% chance to dodge attacks, 6-8% chance to avoid stun

"Adroit" Base movement velocity +32-45%, 2-5% chance to dodge attacks,, 7-10% chance to avoid stun

...........

There could be a Strength+flat physical damage hybrid mod for weapons,

There could be reduced mana cost, increased spell damage mods for caster shields.

There could be hybrid mods for gloves that grant accuracy and cast/attack speed

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Spoiler

GGG knows how to make action choice matter and encourage dynamic gameplay. One of my first PoE experiences was encountering Invalesco's build guides and looking in awe at what an interesting set of active skills he'd utilize for maximum effectiveness. But GGG didn't stick with that: as Charan's post on AoE says more eloquently than I could, everything has become bogged down in AoE supports, auras and triggers, leading to a single-skill spam metagame. Charan has hypothesized that nerfing these autopilot options with the current playerbase would be like taking heroin away from an addict; he just might be correct.

The common thread here is that this isn't quite the game we were hoping for.

Spoiler

I feel a great many of us from CB who are still here are in it not for the game PoE is, but for the game it was, or hopefully will be, or could have been... and never will be, because the things we would like fixed are too ingrained. My hiatus has allowed me to reflect on how it actually borders on mental illness to feel a need to give beta tester feddback for a game which has been in full release for over a year.

Yet it seems I was far from alone in my previous insanity. Which makes me curious: why? What causes us old-time forumers to continue to unrealistically hope for a fundamentally better PoE tomorrow?

And then I meandered back to this site and noticed something, something almost hidden in plain sight: CharanJaydemyr has yet another supporter pack.

Hmm.

About 2 years ago, at the beginning of Open Beta, it was commonly said that the game was, for all intents and purposes, in full release already, since the devs promised no more wipes. Although perhaps true from the perspective of the in-game economy, if you look at the real-money side of things, the actual funding of the game, what you find is the polar opposite: PoE still uses what is essentially a Kickstarter funding model. Buying point picks isn't just buying a point pack, it's becoming a Supporter. As a Supporter, you get to Support the developer as they work on developing the game you'd like to Support so you can see it in the future after you're done Supporting its development.

Except you won't see it, because this Path of Exile will never be that game. But this doesn't stop GGG from throwing out yet another batch of Supporter titles, does it? Of course not; too profitable for them.

You know what term I prefer? Customer. Customers support the businesses they purchase from, but there is an implication that a finished product is involved. Such as, oh, a game in full release.

If you were (I would no longer use the tense "are") a Supporter, then how satisfied are you as a Customer?

Personally, my answer to that question is somewhere between "okay" and "meh," but the point is more in thinking that way, as a Customer, rather than a Supporter. Because after you remove the game which was or could have been, well, what you see is what you get.

Do I want more of this title? Emphatically, no! Perhaps PoE 2, but I've had enough PoE 1, kthx. So I'd like to ask all of you a favor: if you are thinking about being a Supporter, please decide against it. If you're like me and the game you'd like to see more of is the one which could have been or could be, then further Support at this time would only work to postpone what you'd want, not expedite it. Unfortunately, it seems that until we economically force GGG into considering development of an entirely new title, they'll just try making a million expansions for this one ("seems" being the operative word). I hope you agree that's not what you're really interested in.

It was a good game with a handful of incredibly innovative, indeed revolutionary, ideas. But infinite replay value is a lie perpetrated by the Man.

Peace out.

PS: Devs, feel free to email me for beta testing.

If everyone suddenly stopped contributing, how long would the game last? Would GGG have the resources to capitulate and change direction?

If not, than all this tactic would do, is sink the ship and leave us all swimming to shore.

If the game engine is starting to severely limit what GGG can do in terms of creating new skills and items, than the time has probably come to start planning PoE2, and set time lines and figure out how to keep the company profitable while winding down PoE and developing PoE2.

If it's not the game engine limiting new items/skills/monsters etc, than there's no reason to hastily abandon PoE 1. We could call for GGG to do some major revamping of the game, once Act IV is out and they can focus on another direction.

GGG is a business and as such, they can't turn on a dime. If you've ever run a multimillion dollar business you would realize there's a certain amount of momentum and planning that can't be avoided - UNLESS - you have large financial reserves to write off major losses.

If GGG has the capital to self fund for 2-3 years, than they could just stop and switch,
however - the new game would have to be 6 to 9 times as successful JUST TO BREAK EVEN on the proposition.

If they knew PoE 2 would be 15 to 20 times as successful, than it might make sense for them.

If it's going to take 2-3 years to develop PoE 2, and the ongoing revenue is there, than it would make more sense to do BOTH.

It's all a matter of working capital.

That isn't an easy thing to come by.

Eternals and Mirrors are far more common than big capital reserves for small companies.

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Xtorma wrote:

I feel like I'm in a hipster bar waiting for some androgynous chick in horn rimmed glasses to start sprouting poetry about how the world has let her down.

Makes me want to go find a window and open it up...LOOK SUNSHINE.

Good to see you again, Scrotie. I see that some time off agrees with you, for a while back then I feared for your ulcer :)

As for supporter dilemma, I suppose it's all up to your personal perception of it, some supported because they liked what they saw, some supported because they liked the vision, and some supported based on actual promises. In hindsight, we weren't actually been promised much in detail, devs were always pretty vague, most likely because none of it was really set in stone. Ok, I seem to recall we were told we will get optional floating damage numbers but the stance on that later changed to 'not in our shire, it ain't happening'.

That said, I feel the game ultimately delivered plenty, and even though it wasn't always exactly what I hoped for, that wasn't really expected in the first place. I remember honoring our favorite p.r. Chris with a 'sedai' title once, he's telling the truth all right, but that truth isn't always what you think you hear. Which is also fine, what you're thinking is your own problem.

So, my general feeling of longterm satisfaction with the game might be because I wasn't such a big supporter as some of you yes, but maybe it was also because I didn't expect the game to turn up exactly as promised. Or maybe it was just because I got a game that was possible to form an emotional attachment to, you know, and the little imperfections only added to that, I suppose. When you see something imperfect, and even worse when you see it missing the cigar only by a hair you're compelled to interfere and offer opinions and feedback, to get involved. And a game you didn't just play but also got involved with in some way is worth much more in my opinion.

And maybe I got a word for you too, Scrotie, you probably know it already but it never hurts to hear it from somebody else - never bet anything you can't afford to lose and never offer advice you aren't ready to see ignored.

For some reason all I saw there was someone who no longer plays the game is asking people to not buy supporter packs....

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iamstryker wrote:

For some reason all I saw there was someone who no longer plays the game is asking people not buy supporter packs....

That, or to rename them to 'goodie packs'.

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raics wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

For some reason all I saw there was someone who no longer plays the game is asking people not buy supporter packs....

That, or to rename them to 'goodie packs'.

And then make their contents random. Korean MMO style.

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CliveHowlitzer wrote:

And then make their contents random. Korean MMO MtG style.

Good idea, but they'd have to be called 'booster packs' then :)

Act 4 will be a blast.. for a short time.

Unless GGG fundamentally re-designs endgame around ARPG players, instead around economy players, then I don't see myself investing time (and thus money) into the 'core game' anymore. A set of new maps, with the same lacklustre 'loads of trash' looting system and pay-to-play progression... nah.

Racing will be still fun for the long term, but you don't need stash tabs & MTXes for that, so I'm good.

There's no such thing as a 'finished' online game, especially nowadays.

Good to see you back :)

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Xavderion wrote:

There's no such thing as a 'finished' online game, especially nowadays.

Good to see you back :)

There is barely such a thing as a 'finished' game; period, nowadays.