Stringing on the Kickstarter customer, or Why this game needs to die

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chromafunk wrote:

Endgame on D2 was 2 skills and tele.

But hey, 2 skills is a whole new world compared to one.

Many builds in PoE use a single target and an AoE skill, as well as a mobility skill. Other skills like vaal gems, curses, ect vary from build to build.

While this game can be just do one attack and move, most are not.

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Moosifer wrote:

I really think hearing more details from you guys the rose tinted glasses is a good way to put it. I remember those days very well and many of the things in the game now were things I was on this forum begging for.

Drop the glasses trope, it's getting stale.

Here are a couple of examples that appeared on the forum at some time or another of something that could introduce some semblance of tactics to your playing, to my knowledge all are possible within the current game engine.
- Block orientation - I mentioned this at some time as one way to nerf block, basically, you would get full block chance from the front, half of it from the sides and none from behind.
- Damage/accuracy penalty to ranged attackers at close range, 'point blank' mod would be reworked to lessen the penalty.
- Assassin bonus - could be introduced as a keystone or on uniques, basically, for every second you spend within a certain radius of enemies and not attacking you get a large cumulative damage bonus on next attack, kinda like scouting for weaknesses.

Anyway, you probably get the idea, these are gameplay tactics oriented, not build or stat oriented, and seeing those here means there are people interested in playing the game like that. I'm not saying here that 'assassin bonus' would trump pewpewing in any way, but the option would be there for those that want it. Now tell me how many mechanics in the vein of these did we get since closed beta? Probably just one - proximity shield.

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Xtorma wrote:

I think most people do play more than 1 skill. I use
1. static strike
2. leap slam
3. vaal ground slam
4. and I remove cwdt gem and cast ec when I think I need to.

People that use multiple skills most often do it because they want to, not because they need to. I know I'm sometimes trying very hard to populate the ol' action bar with something that I'll want to use at least sometimes. And then I see screenshots of people with just one skill on right click and the rest of action bar 'populated' with auras and my inner kung-fu panda leaves to make tofu.

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raics wrote:

Now tell me how many mechanics in the vein of these did we get since closed beta? Probably just one - proximity shield.

The entire atziri fight. It's 100% tactics, to the point where it can be done with 1 life. New merveil fight is much more of a tactics fight than it use to be. Dom is obviously one as well. Nemesis, exiles, strongboxes, shrines, bloodlines and even torment added additional tactics to the game. Telling me you don't carry a staunching flask? Do you LW/leapslam/whatever away from boxes when you open them, some needing even more caution? Do you enjoy the summoner exile as melee? I mean really, all of these things have changed how we go about the game. Just because the game is faster doesn't mean having something that stops us in our tracks is the best way to introduce new tactics.

I'd argue it was much easier to mindlessly grind the game back in CB than it is now. Just now it's much faster, even after any setbacks.

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Moosifer wrote:

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raics wrote:

Now tell me how many mechanics in the vein of these did we get since closed beta? Probably just one - proximity shield.

The entire atziri fight. It's 100% tactics, to the point where it can be done with 1 life. New merveil fight is much more of a tactics fight than it use to be. Dom is obviously one as well. Nemesis, exiles, strongboxes, shrines, bloodlines and even torment added additional tactics to the game. Telling me you don't carry a staunching flask? Do you LW/leapslam/whatever away from boxes when you open them, some needing even more caution? Do you enjoy the summoner exile as melee?

That's tactics for you? An obligatory flask for everyone except summoners and totemists? Really? :)

Next you'll be telling me lightning thorns was pure tactics and not an ASPD counter.

Oh, so I can just brush off everything you said too then? Ignore what I said, but it's a short list of general things that you have to consider when making a build and playing the game. Each of those categories have special consideration, all of which you're completely ignoring.

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Moosifer wrote:

Oh, so I can just brush off everything you said too then? Ignore what I said, but it's a short list of general things that you have to consider when making a build and playing the game. Each of those categories have special consideration, all of which you're completely ignoring.

I'm ignoring them because you most likely don't know what you're talking about (or at least what I'm talking about), those boss fights you listed aren't tactical at all with the exception of Atziri, and you forgot the only other one that is - shock and horror. Not to mention I wasn't referring to boss fights at all but to playstyle in general. Bosses are something you do occasionally, in case of Atziri maybe not at all.

But, as long as you mentioned boss fights, just think about why Domino fight isn't tactical and Shock 'n Horror is. Versus Domino you're doing what you normally do, you're avoiding damaging projectiles and trying to avoid standing next to dangerous enemies for too long. However, for shock and horror your whole approach is different, you're actively trying to make it waste its laser and then use the window of opportunity to attack it. Hell, if Oak was stronger and his immortal call protected him from all damage he would be a more tactical fight than Domino.

Oh, and countering stuff on your setup level isn't tactical playing, it's something expected in a good RPG of any sort regardless of having tactical combat.

Agreed. I don't support anymore, and probably won't play again until A4, and then I might just let go for the final time when I see that nothing important was changed.

I was in loved with GGG in CB, but at this point I'm extremely disgruntled with what they are doing with this once beautiful game.

Yay, more quotes! It is actually becoming quite clear where the line is being drawn in the sand, and I think it's been worthwhile learning about both perspectives. Let's keep it objective.

Knowing some of the founding developers cited Magic:The Gathering (MtG) as an inspiration for game design, I was expecting something deeper than what we have. I don't play MtG, but I do mess around in Hearthstone.

In card games, there is a lot of thought in how to build your deck. Including certain cards and understanding synergies between cards is critical. This is represented by the passive tree and the strategic planning of a build.

Building your card collection is the itemization/loot finding component.

The deck build and how it integrates with your preferred play style is what I have now come to understand is what attracts people to these types of games. There are multiple approaches to building decks to suit multiple styles of playing face, control, ramp, zoo, etc. Now, I know the analogy breaks down because in card games you are playing against another human (PvP anyone?), whereas in PoE PvE it's us against a relatively basic AI.

Playing the 'card game' in PoE is where I feel let down. There are a lot of skills/passive combinations available, and you can build extremely complex decks (builds), but there are very few ways mechanically to play at a high level (end game). They all involve AoE and mobility. There's no tactical depth to the actual play. No need to lay out a slow to buy time to cast that nuke. No need to stun so you can back out to range to get optimal damage. No need to blind so you can close and wallop them with your 2-hander.

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raics wrote:

...Anyway, you probably get the idea, these are gameplay tactics oriented, not build or stat oriented, and seeing those here means there are people interested in playing the game like that. I'm not saying here that 'assassin bonus' would trump pewpewing in any way, but the option would be there for those that want it. Now tell me how many mechanics in the vein of these did we get since closed beta? Probably just one - proximity shield.
...
People that use multiple skills most often do it because they want to, not because they need to.I know I'm sometimes trying very hard to populate the ol' action bar with something that I'll want to use at least sometimes. And then I see screenshots of people with just one skill on right click and the rest of action bar 'populated' with auras and my inner kung-fu panda leaves to make tofu.

Italics and emphasis mine. This is precisely how I feel.

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Boem wrote:

On this particular subject, i think current skill diversity when hold in a light of "efficiency" is in a good spot.

Everybody needs in order to be efficient

1) single target
2) aoe attack
3) movement

This can be augmented by

1) curses
2) decoy ability
3) power move (vaal skills)

And all of this is coupled with flasks

So in therms of availability we got plenty.

The only problem i see with this observation is the mob composition and the low requirements to alternate out of your AOE attack.

This is probably one of the reasons why phylacteral link was introduced, to force a player into a position where his single target becomes highly relevant.
And just look at the out-cry GGG got for trying that :D.

With better monster composition or AI/ability's this problem could also be solved, obviously this piggy backs on the whole AOE-UBBER-ALLES sentiment.

Peace,

-Boem-

Here, I again agree that I expected to rotate or utilize conditional or situatational skills or tactics in actual play. Playing PoE is like playing something-something-AoE vs rock/paper/scissors. AoE always wins. What's the point in spending my creative time and effort trying to utilize niche or rarely used skills when they invariably can't get into maps?

I'm almost starting to think the barrier to entry into maps isn't a gear check. It's an AoE check. If you can't clear the mobs before you get one shot, re-roll! Yeah, this is going to be a regurgitation of the AoE vs single target debate.

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raics wrote:

Oh, and countering stuff on your setup level isn't tactical playing, it's something expected in a good RPG of any sort regardless of having tactical combat.

The way PoE's mechanics have evolved, there is no alternative to AoE spamming. Yeah, you can use different skills to AoE spam, but it's still one button mashing with the occasional need to move or pop a flask to mitigate that incoming damage spike. Not my idea of a fun time.

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Moosifer wrote:

Personally I would be happiest if all I had to do was right click, most of my builds are designed to be as such.

Precisely.

For me, the game felt more intimate in CB. It felt challenging, but in a fair way. It demanded a lot from a player, but it gave so much.

Firstly, the difficulty was respectful towards the player. You died if you made a mistake. Most mobs were decently threatening, but not to the point where you need to Alt+F4. You would die if you took Vaal smash, you would die if you got charged by Rhoas or Blackguards. For some reason, GGG decided that it should add more and more 1KO mobs in the game, creating unfair difficulty, where people die to a pack of magic devourers that appear out of nowhere. Leaping frogs, ice spewing critters, Invasion bosses, Rouge Exiles - all designed in a way that there's no tactics in fighting them. You hit your ele flasks and go to town against them (figuratively and literary).

DPS creep didn't help one bit against this. I remember time when CC builds were welcomed in parties. I made a permafreezer in Bloodlines and many didn't want to party with me as my dps was not enough to clear the maps with the required speed.

The current design of the difficulty in PoE is kill or be killed in seconds.

Then, the advent of auto-trigger skills where you don't have to do anything anymore. There's no casting EC and watching your duration, observant of when you need to pop IC. There's no more cursing, picking which mob to temp chain and which one to ele debuff. Now everything happens while you run and the game is played around you. Every build is now shock stacker, because why not (zoidberg).

On to the skill tree. It's streamlined, it's efficient, it's so slick that it's almost impossible to make an inefficient build. This was different back in CB, you could easily make an inefficient build and not even be aware of it. People who were efficient in doing it were praised. Now nobody gives a fuck because everyone can make a good build.

I could go on like this for hours. Take the limitation of the net code and the game engine and think about the fact that GGG is stubbornly refusing to accept those limitations. So we get Haku's tower game missions, Avian wretches that swerve and move in unpredictable manners and so on.

We lost the uniqueness of chaos damage and we got Energy shield turned into Life.

GGG dropped the ball with supporter uniques and didn't do anything against the army of botters and RMTers that plague this game and community.

Sure, the game has been incrementally improved, it looks better, it runs better, it's more fluid, everything is more polish and streamlined. There are more skills, you can clear faster, you progress faster, but it's all oh so shallow.

Don't tell me the game is better now than what it stood for in CB.

Edit: oh and how could I have forgotten about the art design of the game! Remember dark and gritty? And then you log into a town and you have anime wings running around, shinny angelic wings, colors, brightness, shiny, purple, mesmerizing, a color fair...all the while most weapons and items in game still have their basic 2D skins. GGG sold out on mtxes, both in terms of getting financed though them and abandoning their art design goal. When I started playing PoE, I saw the art design of items and though 'this is just like Demon Souls, yay!"

And now it feels like playing Asian MMO.

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Garr0t wrote:

Playing the 'card game' in PoE is where I feel let down. There are a lot of skills/passive combinations available, and you can build extremely complex decks (builds), but there are very few ways mechanically to play at a high level (end game). They all involve AoE and mobility. There's no tactical depth to the actual play. No need to lay out a slow to buy time to cast that nuke. No need to stun so you can back out to range to get optimal damage. No need to blind so you can close and wallop them with your 2-hander.

I'd be satisfied with a much simpler "play this card use this skill against single monsters, use different skill against large groups, small groups is a tough choice." Just a simple choice between two. If PoE as it is now was a card game it would be 100% deck building with an AI playing your matches for you.

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Odoakar wrote:

On to the skill tree. It's streamlined, it's efficient, it's so slick that it's almost impossible to make an inefficient build. This was different back in CB, you could easily make an inefficient build and not even be aware of it. People who were efficient in doing it were praised. Now nobody gives a fuck because everyone can make a good build.

Can't agree here. I feel the current tree is quite beautiful and more likely to bring meaningful choice to the player, with far less noob traps than before. I still enjoy looking at the passive tree and coming up with builds; since I know playing is mostly autopilot I just stop there and spare myself the frustration.

I guess what Moosifer likes about the new PoE is this further refined build design component. The tree admittedly is better, and build-around-me uniques mean you can get to BiS for multiple slots fairly quickly. There's no adapting in terms of actual gameplay, however; things just go according to plan, on autopilot. I guess for some that's enjoyable, but not for me.