Stringing on the Kickstarter customer, or Why this game needs to die
"I feel this is a perfect example of the pendulum swinging too far the other way. Yes, D3's original treatment of uniques felt too much like rare items, as you said. But this does not mean that we want to obsolete rare items for any build; there should always be a better rare, even if it's a very long way down the road. A great example of this in concept, if not in execution, is Chin Sol. Consider if that unique was essentially: Equals Mirror-worthy bow at Close Range Less than Mirror-worthy bow at Long Range This would encourage a certain playstyle in order for power, but it would never trump the ultimate rare bow, which would be Mirror-worthy at all ranges. In terms of uniques which actually exist, the best design is Tabula Rasa. Powerful, play-altering, nothing like a rare, and decidedly not BiS. So a good unique has 3 characteristics: 1. It offers players a chance at true power (it cannot have be lame) 2. It sets conditions on that offer the player must meet or accept (it cannot be unconditional) 3. Sooner or later, it can be outclassed by a rare, even if only by a very narrow margin (it is not best in slot) In terms of rares becoming homogenized... That is dependent on the balance of rare affixes. There is nothing saying that the battle between the 3rd and 4th best prefixes isn't so heated that both are considered viable, etc. ... Perhaps, this is just an example of GGG abandoning their original idea and jumping on a bandwagon. Keeping the D3 haters happy and keeping the PoE players happy seemed synonymous for quite some time. "Hmm. Although you're doing that pendulum swing again - support gem balance is definitely a factor - it is indeed interesting to consider how fear of desync has led to spray-and-pray and automated gameplay. It is particularly sad if they have deliberately dumbed down gameplay to cover up desync problems, rather than actually fixing desync. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Feb 11, 2015, 5:55:48 PM
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I gotta say, I'm pro fast pace. cant do it in a group.
the intensity of combat with a glass cannon is insane, I cant fight in a group... but solo with my system fully rendering frames on time and pinging nicely. I have some intense as F fun :D I love how utterly fast i need to be in order to survive which is an evolution of CS, D2 (sorc), sc2 (zerg) be quick or be dead. Love it. but I know thats mostly just me. I have not had such a great potential to do what I want to do as I have this league (and last league) as the system and itemization allow me all the freedom I need. (to solo collect 78's rapidly to build for astonishing mobility/dps) that's what I wanted, and I got what I wanted. I absolutely love skill based gameplay. So much so that in order to achieve it... I play alone. if I had an i7, it would be different. |
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" Now it sounds like a poem. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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" As did that. You are a poet and you didn't know it. Casually casual.
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Re: Itemization, presumably having just 7 highly desirable rare affixes would create 6 BiS rares of the same type. Having just 8 increases that to 28 BiS rares of the same type. "x choose y" is a powerful function for making big numbers with little effort.
It doesn't take but a few rare affixes to completely shift the current mirror-level dynamics away from the current homogenization as well as spray the game with a much-needed firehose of new design space. The best example I keep coming back to is the addition of a {+ipd%,-aspd%} suffix that would reinvigorate slow, spiky damage dealers while not also being desirable by the standard fast attacking crit dps hegemony. --- As for uniques, I have a lot of things to say but no clear or simple ways to categorize the good and the bad. I don't mind "build-maker" uniques so much, even if they are never surpassed by a rare, but only if they don't dominate the entire archetype. Like, Facebreakers seem fine to me even though they are "Best in 2 slots (technically helm as well if you count BoR/Abyssus)" because there are lots of other really strong melee builds in the same archetype so the design space is still wide open. Conversely, Mjolner dominates the entire non-hardcaster archetype. It's CoC-but-better, and the downsides are both manageable and ultimately do not change the playstyle of the build significantly. As a simple example of bad unique itemization, Windripper is just straight up BiS for bow CoC and very nearly BiS for bow crit in general. Higher crit than is attainable anywhere else, huge aspd, pretty okay damage, and yeah, let's throw in some MF as well because why not. "Balanced by rarity" hard at work, I guess. --- " That sounds like a blast and I'm glad you're enjoying the game. However, if that was the way the game was billed in 2011, I would not have bothered with it at all. There are lots of games out there with better engines for mechanical/fast skillful play. This engine seemed way more tuned for design/creative skillful play which is why there's so much confusion present ITT. It's been like watching GGG try to convert a motorhome into a racecar over the years -- endless questions as to why and astoundment that they've kept trying for so long. |
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" It's fine to have uniques like chin sol and tabula rasa that reduce the progression timeline and permit high level play while leaving room for significant upgrades. These make the game more accessible, and there is definitely a necessary place for them. But that shouldn't be the only itemization goal for uniques. You neglect what I find to be one of the most important characteristics of a good unique: adding breadth/depth to gameplay, via build-enabling properties that aren't part of the rare affix pool. If we don't have uniques that are best in slot for specific builds, then GGG is likely failing in their use of itemization to alter/enhance/diversify system mechanics and gameplay experiences. If a unique is truly build-enabling it should be impossible for a rare to outclass it for the build enabled by it, unless we start adding build-enabling properties to the rare affix pool (which would inevitably result in a far worse itemization system and progression paradigm). Games in the ARPG genre are often classified as item hunts. Initially, Blizzard made the mistake of assuming that they would have strong player satisfaction and retention because players would be motivated to hunt for items just because they were upgrades. Maybe that works for players with MMO/WoW brain damage (or perhaps there are other forces at play), but we know it failed in D3. Players need more than a hunt for upgrades as motivation for repetitive farming and character remakes in an ARPG. Repeated character creation and player retention in an ARPG is driven by the myriad of predictable items that are available to enable builds, plan builds around, facilitate goal-setting, and motivate grind. The reward for that grind is a new toy. Not a better version of the same toy or a toy that is generally the same but BIGGER. The motivation comes from a different toy, a toy that yields a new experience. Items that modify mechanics, skills, enable passives for builds that are normally out of reach, or enhance/alter gameplay in unique ways are a design necessity for a long-lasting ARPG. It's best to use tailored uniques to fill this role (or sets, runewords, and similarly predictable/known item categories). Trying to accomplish this while keeping rares as BIS for every equipment slot for all builds in all cases would not be fun, nor would it result in a gearing time horizon that's attractive. It would be a RNG, balance, and grind nightmare to add build enabling properties to the rare affix pool, like we see in three dragons, voll's devotion, romira's banquet, mjolnir, voll's protector, cloak of defiance, facebreaker, voltaxic rift, aegis aurora, doedre's elixir, etc. Presently, we generally have a healthy mix of uniques and rares occupying equipment slots in top tier builds. I'm happy with having this mix as a long-term itemization goal. Never underestimate what the mod community can do for PoE if you sell an offline client. Last edited by Vhlad#6794 on Feb 11, 2015, 7:06:30 PM
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"Huh? So rare affixes like increased crit chance, or energy shield, or elemental vs physical damage, those aren't build defining? Or is it that they are, but you think it is bad for some reason? On what tablet from Mount Sinai is it written that rare affixes will only provide the boring mods which everyone needs, and never an opportunity for true build diversity? True story: I asked GGG to make "This item not destroyed on death when equipped by a minion" a rare affix in instead of creating a unique item, when given the opportunity to make a unique. I believe this game has more need for interesting affixes than spamming the unique item list with yet another entry. My "unique" is a Haku mod (which should be available on more item types). So I ask you to tell me why an affix like that shouldn't exist in the game. "I actually hate the design of all of these. I mean, I used Cloak a lot, but I never thought it was fair. Devotion is by far the stupidest design of any unique. Ever. Most OP item in the game. Three Dragons is actually a nice design. Especially now with the Heralds; you don't need it to shock with Incinerate anymore, assuming Added Lightning. Was perhaps a little OP before that. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Feb 11, 2015, 7:48:23 PM
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I kind of enjoy coming in late to threads. I don't have to compose all my thoughts myself, just steal quotes from those more eloquent and quicker than I.
"Yup. That's the way I currently feel. If I wanted to drive a racecar, I'd load up that other game that was backed by a studio with deeeep pockets and refined the gameplay so much that it translated to console seamlessly... "This is where I differ greatly. Wayyy back when, I anticipated due to the technical challenges inherent in the game engine that GGG would stay away from twitch/reactive play and focus more on mechanics and tactics, rewarding multiple skill use, positioning and skill shots. What we have now is fairly succinctly described by you, and it isn't what I expected. "And this encapsulates what I just described above. "We were going to monitor the situation but it was in the wrong aspect ratio."
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" Rare affixes like increased crit chance, or energy shield, or elemental vs physical damage do not: modify mechanics, skills, enable passives for builds that are normally out of reach, or enhance/alter gameplay in unique ways. They are not build enabling affixes. Examples of build enabling affixes: - Insufficient Mana doesn't prevent your Melee Attacks - Hits can't be Evaded - 100% of Lightning Damage Converted to Chaos Damage, Your Chaos Damage can Shock - Life Leech from Hits with this Weapon applies instantly - Leech applies instantly on Critical Strike at 60% effectiveness - Ghost Reaver - 50% chance to Cast Socketed Lightning Spells on Hit - 1% increased Area of Effect Radius per 20 Intelligence, 1% increased Attack Speed per 10 Dexterity, 16% increased Physical Weapon Damage per 10 Strength - 1% increased Damage per 8 Strength when in Main Hand, 1% increased Armour per 16 Strength when in Off Hand - 1% increased Attack Damage per 450 Evasion Rating - +2 to Melee Weapon Range per White Socket - 100% Increased Damage when on Low Life (untyped, global damage) - 10% chance to gain a Power Charge if you Knock an enemy Back with Melee Damage - Mind Over Matter - Blood Magic - 40% of Physical Damage taken as Lightning Damage - Chaos Damage does not bypass Energy Shield - Can summon up to 1 additional totem - Gain a Power Charge for each Enemy you hit with a Critical Strike - Enemies can have 1 additional Curse - 100% of Cold Damage Converted to Fire Damage - Gain a Power Charge on non-Critical Strike, Lose all Power Charges on Critical Strike - You cannot Regenerate Mana, 3.0% of Energy Shield Regenerated per second - Cannot be Stunned - 50% of Block Chance applied to Spells - Gain an Endurance Charge when a Power Charge expires or is consumed - Projectile Damage increased by Arrow Pierce Chance - (600 to 800)% more Unarmed Physical Damage - Curses in this item are reflected back to you - Increases and Reductions to Spell Damage also apply to Attacks - Your Skills deal you 400% of Mana Cost as Physical Damage - Your Fire Damage can Shock but not Ignite, Your Cold Damage can Ignite but not Freeze or Chill, Your Lightning Damage can Freeze but not Shock - Replenishes Energy Shield by 2% of Armour when you Block - Gems in this item have Blood Magic etc. However, many uniques enable builds not with singular affixes, but with multiple synergistic affixes on the unique itself (i.e. mon'tregul's grasp) and/or in combination with other uniques (i.e. Gain Flask Charges when you deal a Critical Strike + 6% of Damage leeched as Life on Critical Strike on the harvest, in combination with doedre's elixir and voll's protector). Adding these sorts of affixes to the rare pool would create a balance and RNG nightmare. The power difference between bad and good rares would be extreme, difficult to balance around, and potentially catastrophic to race competition. New players would be frustrated by finding rares that are polluted with affixes that create incompatibilities with their current build. Vet players would be frustrated by the significant increase in grind/cost to finish a build. How exactly is it better to throw all of this stuff on rares so that they can beat uniques in all slots for all builds in all cases? " How much RNG do you really want in an item system? Adding targeted/niche mods to the rare affix pool would be like adding more thorns: dilute the affix pool so it takes longer and becomes costlier to acquire ideal items. Sure I can see the merit if you own many bots, have 500 farming slaves, or own a RMT website, but... " Adding that affix to a unique item is fine. And adding it to master crafting is also fine. But do you think players would be happy if it appeared in the rare affix pool? Never underestimate what the mod community can do for PoE if you sell an offline client.
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"All of these would work fine as rare affixes: - x% of (life/mana) leech applies instantly - +x to melee weapon range - x% of block chance applied to Spells - +x% increased/more unarmed physical damage Naturally, as rare affixes, they would be acceptable, although perhaps unlikely, candidates for unique item mods. "This mod cannot be balanced. At all. It is beyond salvation and must be purged. "These are all valid choices for unique affixes. However, in many cases the design allows them to be built around far too easily, and for too long. Length is a key concern here: it is fine to make a unique item players build around, so long as, eventually, there is a point where it makes sense to use a handful of Regrets and equip a rare instead. Quick examples: - Voltaxic Rift and Crown of Eyes would both make fantastic low-level uniques, especially if the Crown mod was on a weapon. Rift would challenge you to build damage on it (Herald, Wrath, WED, etc) for an anti-reflect carry, but its even-lower base would make the task difficult. Crown could be great for leveling casters who don't come into their own until later, relying on attacks until then. - Ghost Reaver can go on a low-damage unique weapon just fine, assuming no spell damage at play. The current unique isn't a problem. - Mjolner could be fixed by reducing the percentage and getting rid of the ridiculous stat requirements. It's a CoC weapon without the crits, okay... So make it a weapon a CoC build can use until it crits enough, one which CoC will eventually trump. "The only way to properly design these is to do direct tradeoffs. You need a drawback so severe you leave the player wondering if they are actually ahead, or perhaps anyone using such an item is a fool. I saw someone post a fixed Shavronne's where it keeps its mod against chaos damage but gains "fire damage bypasses your energy shield." That would be a perfect example: is the situation better or worse if Fire bypasses and chaos doesn't? As long as 75% chaos res was, fairly clearly, the right way to go long-term, I'd have no issue with people using Arctic Armour to get their low-life builds started. ... And that's the key concept, really. Uniques should be a vehicle for people to get their builds chugging along, providing a few extra abilities which help you coast through Cruel or tackle maps. They should be relevant enough that people use them, normally by having uniques do stuff rares technically cannot do. For many players, upgrading past their unique just won't happen; they'll never play that long. But at the very end of the day, we want rares, not uniques, to have that coveted BiS designation. This ensures that the player always has an upgrade to look forward too. Unless they have a perfect rare, I guess. But that's harder than a perfect unique, so yeah, what I said. "First off, there is no rule saying all affixes need be equally probable. You can deliberately give, say, damage affixes a better chance to spawn, etc. But yes, even with utilitarian tweaks, you still have a point. Ususeless, or at a certain point the least useful, affixes should be cut from the pool. A good rule of thumb here is really think hard about the upgrade frequency the targeted build(s) for the affix would need. For example, my Animate Guardian mod would work just fine as a rare affix providing it appeared very, very infrequently. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Feb 12, 2015, 12:07:46 AM
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