Did you remove /oos or fix desync?

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broodrooster wrote:

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mkmaddage wrote:

For god's sake mods, PLEASE lock this thread before more idiots post empty threats about how they're going to leave as if ANY of us care.

Kid - LEAVE. It is not worth GGG's time to have your patronage in exchange for your lazy, entitled whinging. Read the posts on desync before spamming your stupid unlearned view in here. Guess what? Enough players like this game that your stupid opinion doesn't matter.

DW I have enough topics on the d3 forums :)

Aside from your 2 passionate "stories" (a.k.a. obvious complaining), you made me laugh.

No one is saying the dev's are not aware of the issue, we know it's known. We know it's been known for a long time. this isn't what we're discussing. But you're not interested in discussion, so I wonder why you actually browse the forums?

Actually love, my "anger" comes from the fact that people ARE saying the devs are not aware of the issue. Just read back a little way... Why do I browse? Initially I was just poking around because a friend dev pointed the game out to me. Then my rage boner was incited by the amount of entitlement seeping from the forum cracks and I felt compelled to jump in and have some fun.

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broodrooster wrote:

And even though most of the players (still doubt that) aren't having sync issues. It's a big issue that is costing them players by the day. And as word spreads on the problem even for streamers the game is slowly building up a bad name around it :) (280+ pages on the search in general on the forums here on the word "desync")

Actually, ALL players are experiencing desync issues - what I said is that the majority of them are not aware of them or don't experience as great an impact on their game experience because they aren't far enough to do so.

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broodrooster wrote:

I understand you're a very angry person but there's no need to be mad, This thread will not be closed. GGG is most interested in this thread, not for the "whining" but the issues that occur, what the situation was, what they are playing, where they're from, etc :) Information is knowledge and communication is key....

Too bad you don't understand how game development works and only see everything as QQ instead of healthy discussion. Also you shouldn't care when I quit indeed, but if you were a game dev your game would have 0 players atm. Just look at how diablo 3 turned out, there are no public games to be found :)

I live with a dev and it may surprise you to learn that devs are human and they get angry or annoyed too. Devs don't need to hear the same spam about the game and how people want to leave when they've already posted repeatedly about their plans for the situation. You just pointed out HOW many posts there are - you seriously think a small indie team sits there collecting data from forum posts to that degree?

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broodrooster wrote:

This game relies an active online community with trading, parties and more. If that falls the game is going to fall. In conclusion I just want to wish you the best of luck ingame since I assume you're not having sync issues, may you slay many monsters and I will see you ingame when and if this issue gets fixed in the future!

p.s. Also try not to be such an angry person, since you're already a full adult unlike us kids. It might be damaging for your health at that age, the old ticker can't take as much as it used to!

I have sync issues aplenty... although I have barely made it to 4th level (I don't even play this game - what does that tell you?) I'll try not to be so angry - but it's so much fun at my age... In conclusion, I apologise for ranting at you previously and I take your mocking little slapbacks as fair due!

Quick question: How does using improper predictions help hide the desyncs/make the environment better? They said they haven't made the client try to accurately predict what the server does, instead it uses wrong predictions intentionally... for some reason?

I just can't see how that approach is anything but incredibly bad way to go about it.

I haven't made it to Merciless yet but I do get the occasional lag spike on Cruel that can be frustrating at times. Generally though the desyncs occure in predictable ways like when being swarmed or lots of enemies moving around trying to reach you etc..

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Nicholas_Steel wrote:

Quick question: How does using improper predictions help hide the desyncs/make the environment better? They said they haven't made the client try to accurately predict what the server does, instead it uses wrong predictions intentionally... for some reason?

I just can't see how that approach is anything but incredibly bad way to go about it.

I haven't made it to Merciless yet but I do get the occasional lag spike on Cruel that can be frustrating at times. Generally though the desyncs occure in predictable ways like when being swarmed or lots of enemies moving around trying to reach you etc..

IDK... I never bought into the certain skills cause desyncs.

Sure certain skills make them more frequent... But the rampant desyncs happen nonstop and no skill starts the train.

I mean walking through a door, mobs desync... Running away from a group of mobs, they desync... Autoattack with the basic default attack, they desync...

I have no clue why or what design choice they made that caused this... But I'm just frustrated that it's been basically unaddressed for the 2ish years since it was brought up in Alpha.

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mkmaddage wrote:

Just posting in here before this thread gets locked - to explain why it WILL be locked, if the current moderator action is anything to go by.

When a thread gets over a certain length the more recent posters, for mostly understandable reasons, don't bother to read back through and see what responses have been given.

If any of the fools in this latest page of responses had bothered to even look slightly harder they would see that half of their whinging entitled complaints have already been answered by the devs, so here it is for you slow, stupid people:

Desync is a KNOWN and ACKNOWLEDGED High Priority Issue

GGG is an indie company with 20ish employees and cannot afford the resources to develop everything to 100% at once so they focus on what the greater player base NEEDS.

Hint: the greater player base does not need desync fixed before server stability. The greater player base does not even know that desync is a problem because they never reach a level where it matters (poster re: NZ server - you got the money, fool? You have any idea of the costs involved? No? Then STFU and GTFO).

GGG have not been "doing nothing" for two years - as they've repeatedly mentioned, they've implemented fixes on this issue throughout this time but it's still a problem!


And one final hoorah for the complaining kids I love so much:

You are not paying for this game - microtransactions buy you ingame digital assets, NOT control over how the game is made, idiots.

The control GGG HAS granted you over the game is to make calm, logical suggestions (that take into account the massive amount of complexity that already exists - so read up before suggesting they add spaceships and runestone set skill paths) in the Suggestions forum.

If you want to whinge... join the D3 forums - they're good for that!

TL;DR - complaining about desync: old news, get over it, already been answered and dealt with.

Whining about people whining does not put you above the people that are complaining.

Get off your high horse, you're acting like a child.

Well, I had a long post typed out, but it was eaten by the back button, so:

1 - As far as a "wrong" model being an improvement, consider how a perfectly accurate model would work with flickerstrike, everything would rubberband horribly >_>

2 - To the person with lengthy posts complaining about "entitlement":
a) welcome to the American market, stuff is expected to work without major flaws or it gets binned usually.
b) asking my friends to play this game usually goes something like this:

Well, this game is good except [long list of caveats]

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i see
so my friend was trying to sell me a stereotypical kmmo
with unbalanced classes and stat stacking
:D

And then nobody plays this game except the people I know who play kmmos, where dying to stupid bugs is expected because the support staff are highly trained chimpanzees that tell stupid non-Korean foreigners that every bug is an "advanced feature." I'm somehow pretty sure that's not quite what the developers are going for here, so it seems reasonable to have higher expectations, yes?

Love everything about the game, the environments, monsters, weapons, orb, abilities, you name it ;)

Really good to know that even a small team has the time to address and interact with their customer base. High-five.


The desyncing issue adds new depth of gameplay for me, can I realise I'm /oos and react quick enough to log out before dying?

I certainly can, can you? ;D

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genericacc wrote:

1 - As far as a "wrong" model being an improvement, consider how a perfectly accurate model would work with flickerstrike, everything would rubberband horribly >_>

I can kinda see how it would be bad but it's kinda hard to wrap my head around the problem. It would be rad if someone could come up with a more complete explanation of how an accurate prediction system would be worse. I mean you'd still have desyncs like you do now, just less?

As far as I can tell it was said that the game does not attempt to reliably predict server server behavior, it instead does it's own slightly wrong things intentionally to... I dunno, somehow magically reduce the apparent mass amounts of desyncs that actually happen? And I just can't see how that is logical at all.

Also with regards to enemies that do Charge attacks? I imagine the client can not interrupt such abilities as they are happening which is why they are supposedly the biggest causes of the client going out of sync.

I can't quite word what I mean, anyways I'll wait for that GGG guy to spill the beans on the current system etc.

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Nicholas_Steel wrote:

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genericacc wrote:

1 - As far as a "wrong" model being an improvement, consider how a perfectly accurate model would work with flickerstrike, everything would rubberband horribly >_>

I can kinda see how it would be bad but it's kinda hard to wrap my head around the problem. It would be rad if someone could come up with a more complete explanation of how an accurate prediction system would be worse. I mean you'd still have desyncs like you do now, just less?

As far as I can tell it was said that the game does not attempt to reliably predict server server behavior, it instead does it's own slightly wrong things intentionally to... I dunno, somehow magically reduce the apparent mass amounts of desyncs that actually happen? And I just can't see how that is logical at all.

Also with regards to enemies that do Charge attacks? I imagine the client can not interrupt such abilities as they are happening which is why they are supposedly the biggest causes of the client going out of sync.

I can't quite word what I mean, anyways I'll wait for that GGG guy to spill the beans on the current system etc.

Nicholas, I think you misunderstood Damien's post. The client tries to predict the exact server behavior, there's no intentional error so that you would miss. I believe what Damien meant by saying that they want you to miss sometimes, is that they don't want to give such a wide margin of desync error into hit calculation, that if you shoot in the general direction of the monster, you would always hit.

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Nicholas_Steel wrote:

I can kinda see how it would be bad but it's kinda hard to wrap my head around the problem. It would be rad if someone could come up with a more complete explanation of how an accurate prediction system would be worse. I mean you'd still have desyncs like you do now, just less?

Well, if you want a contrived example, suppose we have a simple model:

1 - mobs always move towards you
2 - you have a constant 200ms ping

An "accurate" model (i.e. what the server does) is to have the mobs on the client always move towards the user's position. This is relatively accurate assuming that user's position is stable.

Now the user teleports. 200ms later, the server receives the teleport and executes it.

Accurate model: The mobs move towards the client's position on the client, and the client's position on the server on the server. For a sufficiently large teleport this will cause a fairly significant desync on fast mobs.

Inaccurate model: Use your last observed latency and delay your teleport by that much. Teleport feels less responsive (unpredictably so), mob position more accurate.

On a largely irrelevant note, if you know a bit about differential equations there's a lot of locally accurate models there that are not accurate whatsoever over longer timespans (try numerical solutions to diffusion problems with the explicit Euler method sometime).

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As far as I can tell it was said that the game does not attempt to reliably predict server server behavior, it instead does it's own slightly wrong things intentionally to... I dunno, somehow magically reduce the apparent mass amounts of desyncs that actually happen? And I just can't see how that is logical at all.

Well, you can't really reliably predict server behavior unless you're dealing with objects with deterministic paths (i.e. not affected by user input). Of course, that's a special case where you can, hence why I rage at charge "desync", there's really no excuse for that when the thing takes several multiples of my ping to reach me...

What's known is that GGG doesn't want skills to "always hit" and that all attacks are targeted on a point in space. If you are clicking on a target to execute your attack as opposed to shift+clicking ground, the bubble in which your attack is considered valid increases.

There are a few interpretations of what they've said:
1 - They don't have any desync compensation whatsoever and they think people just want a really large bubble (to be honest, this is my current workaround with ground slam, that thing's huge). I thought Damien said this, which is why I was so annoyed earlier in the thread.

2 - They have state rewinding and rewind to see if any state in the period since the last received packet matches (I seem to recall that PoE packets don't contain timestamp anyway) and they don't want to increase the size of that buffer. I've seen some pretty "interesting" implementations of state rewinding before (try fighting a BR in C9 sometime) so that might be justified.

3 - ? I am tired right now and don't care to review thread or what I've written before.

Option 1 is far more likely than option 2. Nobody knows until we get the followup post, so. Most of this shouldn't be a substantial issue for me (I have 60-100 ping) so I think it's very likely that they resend mob position very rarely; and it doesn't seem to resync on its own when the client is blatantly out of sync.

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Also with regards to enemies that do Charge attacks? I imagine the client can not interrupt such abilities as they are happening which is why they are supposedly the biggest causes of the client going out of sync.

Charge attacks are currently really screwy and I doubt the client is factored in at all (how would you resolve collision detection like that?). Hence the complaints I had about the oneshot rhoas you have to dodge by like two inches of screen space...

On the other hand it's basically a linear projectile with constant velocity and I have no idea why its position is frequently off by so much.

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LogoOnPoE wrote:

Nicholas, I think you misunderstood Damien's post. The client tries to predict the exact server behavior, there's no intentional error so that you would miss. I believe what Damien meant by saying that they want you to miss sometimes, is that they don't want to give such a wide margin of desync error into hit calculation, that if you shoot in the general direction of the monster, you would always hit.

This is a solved problem though: you buffer world state for some short period and send a packet timestamp; if it would have hit at that timestamp, then you hit. Due to memory constraints an implementation of this isn't exactly simple, but I'm pretty sure this has been around since the late 90s.

To be quite honest I don't care that much about my skills hitting as long as I can see where mobs are fairly accurately and don't rubberband if I make the foolish mistake of fighting near a doorway.

The desync issue certainly needs work but considering the game is in beta I can live with it for the time being as for the most part it doesn't cause me problems although I do play ranged and maybe it is more of a problem for melee charas.

What I cannot abide by is the charger mobs in the game. Rhoas, Shield Chargers & particularly the Rolling Rocks guys are broken. I don't know if it is just a desync problem but they hit you without doing the animations & even if you avoid the attack you often still get hit. These mobs do MASSIVE damage & stun you & in conjunction with them not playing the animations it's nothing short of a clusterfuck.

I would personally make a request for GGG to take the charger mobs out the game (or at least disable the charge) for the time being until the issue is working better. They make the game feel like an Alpha and for a soft release I feel they essentially do the game harm.

Please consider removing the chargers for the time being. Thanks.