Feedback / MoM + duelist

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CanHasPants wrote:

I suppose I should further qualify my statement by adding that MoM's relative placement is fine (i.e., in the Dex side of Str/Dex, or the Str/Dex side of straight Dex.. that general area); I am certain its exact placement could be fine-tuned (e.g., swapping it with Ondar's or Iron Reflexes, or in that general area).

This wasn't much issue the last time I played, but I can see a good bit has changed enroute to EB, both from MoM <- EV whel <- Scion -> up the middle -> EB, and from MoM <- Ranger/Shadow outer tree -> EB. I concede these paths may no longer be efficient (before there were life/mana clusters and some sweet, sweet regen).

The only thing I am opposed to is moving MoM to another area of the tree. Its disparate placement is part of its identity (imo), and it's current location is vaguely appropriate, perhaps given some fine-tuning. To that end, given my lack up-to-date experience, I totally concede to your points; you offer some excellent feedback and solutions regarding the issues surrounding its exact placement and what tools are available nearby.

It's current exact location does, however, lend to a relatively cost-free but proportionately less beneficial synergy with BMK, with the aforementioned change to BMK. That would diminish significantly if it were moved closer to Dex/Int... but, then again, changing BMK is a pipe dream, so w/e ^-^

Another place that I think might be able to be expanded upon for MoM is Revelry. (Aside: does its +2 MGoH double when striking simultaneously with Dual Wield?). Its placement (now) is right nearby to MoM, and I think replacing the MGoK (not very useful to MoM) with flat ~6 to 10 total flat mana regen (clarity-like) could lend itself to making those now-fewer % regen nodes more efficient for MoM. Duelist would then have Revelry as an MoM-ready option to blend leech and regen.

If the immortal flesh did not have such a great downside, i would be totally using that sucker for this build :p, the flat mana regen would be of huge potential to this type of play.

But as it is now, having a -5% max resistance on a 2-hand melee build is just a big fat nono.

My only gripe i have with MoM is it's placement and lack of appropriate support for it in that side of the tree.

Look at it like this CanHasPants,

EB - witch, clear case of potential

Ancestral bound - templar, clear case of potential

Acro + phase acro - shadow/ranger clear case of potential

Blood magic - marauder, clear case of potential (not discussing relative strength here, just how the area's lend themselves to the utility of the key-stone)

then we have, duelist MoM + iron grip, both lackluster and poorly supported key-stones for the area's they are in.

In this sense i feel both iron grip and MoM need better support in there appropriate area so they become a viable option.

Since MoM in the placement it currently resides better lends itself to a mana leach based defense, i think this is a route worth taking, even combined with the suggested new "blood magic" in this thread it would not be "overpowered".

About revelry, it's a great node to have, but in end-game gear i think it loses most of its virtue, even more so because the points leading up to it are only 4% mana gain. For those same points i could get 2x 8% mana and a 12% mana cluster, resulting in more then 2 extra mana per leach + flat base mana regen.

Peace,

-Boem-

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deteego wrote:

I don't think MoM is in a terrible position, in the sense that there are some epic mana regen nodes in that area (Mana Flows, Arcane Chemistry).

MoM's posititioning seems to beg using Scion, I just cooked up a Wandere/MoM skill build here (http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgAACGe-vJM6guS9J5ARGDyKr_noSsiCxz8nbqoo-ipNtfJXyRUgqW4NfCzpo-8qOFYteA3qut0NytNEit7l6Ga0DFuvGbRUghSpP_yTJ0ZxsnAY276nCLEc3IMJYpV08W5pf8ZvnipThTLV-BGWwcWcpA5IiEIsv4cT44RjQx3Zgh6GrncHwJzy4UNUFLDB8xXXpzT2_EcG9HFMLZphlSBWY9vnEQ_Cc8fKLR9faqyYc3DJRMUoHU9Ms_fXn4i-7vZbNblQMJuhhEj25z9zWbwRUKcr2wJca85wbOdtGXjO8wnDbQmg0xtRbPnI)

You could alternately use EB, and go hybrid, which would have a slightly different build, i.e. (http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgAACGe-vJM6guS9J5ARGDyKr_noSsiCxz8nbqoo-ipNtfJXyRUgqW41kg18LOmj71YteA3Yveq63Q3K00SK3uXoZrQMW68ZtFSCFKk__JMnRnGycBjbvqcIsRzc74iDCWKVdPFuaX_G-TdvnipThTLV-BGWwcXXz_GznKQOSAceiEJJsUtXhxPjhGNDlS6CHsDjdwc2PfLh8NUUsNsLwfOdqklRTC2aYZUgYqxsjBEPwnPHyi0frJhzcMlExShMs_fXOlifiL7u9ltQMJuhVcb25z9zWbzbAoPbznBs53jO8wkJoNMbUWz5yGsXvOrAVGpD).

As you can see, you spend 14 points to get MoM (that also gives 42% to all res, which is huge). You can then spend another 5 points to get Mana Flows + removal of movement armor penalty. Then on the left side for 6 points you have battle rouse (which will grant you an excellent 3% damage taken as mana). 1 extra point will also give you Vaal Pact

This is 25 points all up. 26 if you want Vaal Pact

The rest pretty much depends on what you want to build. Going north west out of Scion gives you Dynamo and Shaper, further increasing your mana regen.

long story short, MoM placement isn't optimal, but if you start as Scion, its far from terrible. Also there is a good argument that making MoM being placed near the witch area might be too strong, basically there wouldn't be little reason not to get MoM as a witch

I think you are missing the point of this thread a bit sir.

I already previously stated "sure you can go EB + MoM", however would this be optimal/sem-viable with a duelist? (the arch-type that currently holds this key-stone)

also you make it sound in your post like 26 points is nothing at all for a mere 42 all resistance and some mediocre mana increases. I am sorry mate but that does not compute for me, 26 points is massive.

The build you describe is fine, for a caster, not a melee duelist (which is the most obvious arch-type for a duelist) and as such, irrelevant to this thread.

Just to illustrate, your build can be reworked and have a lot more actual stats by just utilizing Cloak of defiance and going the EB route. It would lose nothing, but only gain in passive tree strength as such any build that actually travels down towards MoM and up towards EB is shooting itself in the foot and is poorly optimized.

So we can conclude from this, EB must be neglected in this thread since we are discussing this from a duelist melee perspective. And unless GGG makes a unique that gives EB (god no. . .) a duelist will never use that key-stone.

Like i mentioned to CanHasPants, even routing up-wards to the intel side of the passive tree is a fallacy for a melee duelist. One would have to neglect dps and ehp, for a lower % ehp increase overall.

Similar to how i could regret this character to pure life and have more effective ehp% base then i currently have due to MoM's efficiency on the duelist side of the tree.
(which is the core of this thread btw, the efficiency of MoM in its current placement being non-existent just to obscure its placement for witches, this is a bad approach, it should at least offer something to the duelist class if it is situated there)

Peace,

-Boem-

I hadn't even looked at the mana% value on revelry >.> I agree about that.

The thing about the MGoH was that it is instant, and potentially enough to sustain a good portion of your active mana cost (on a reliable AoE), thereby supplementing some of the pressure from Leech so that it can be used more effectively to cover MoM's defensive mana cost.

That, plus its placement, seems like it would be ideal as a MoM-identified cluster.. but the MGoK is of little use for MoM (since MoM needs to be paid for while killing enemies; not after). Expanding upon this, replacing the MGoK with flat mana regen would likewise supplement mana regeneration. Neither would "solve" MoM on its own, but instead give Duelist the tools necessary to blend regen and leech.

Also, to amend my previous statement about EB, I wonder if there might be something to making use of the shield defense nodes enroute to EB, to gain ~1200 ES-> mana from a decent EV/ES shield. I could see potential for this to become much stronger than the situation back in 1.1 (when I found the route between EB and MoM to be manageable). Granted, this is of little use to a 2H build, which Duelist seems desperately trying to be capable of (and would love to have MoM even more than sword and board).

Slight tangent: I think a well balanced unique with EB built in would be very nice.. similar to how the EB-native side of the tree itself can take CoD to avoid traveling to MoM, this would allow the MoM-native side of the tree to take (??) to avoid traveling to EB. I wouldn't consider this a "fix" to the situation, though, just something that would be nice.

But at any rate, more to the point of your reply, I think the issue lies more in the keystone's peripheral support than its actual placement (ergo my suggestion for Revelry). There are a few other things that help an MoM Duelist (like Windscream/Doedre's to support +1 curse for Warlord's or Poacher's Mark) but none of these involve the tree around MoM.

Also I do, and have thought for a long time now, that leech from the tree has been way too restrictive. I don't know why Shadow should have the only 2% (4% with claws) and it be restricted solely to physical attack damage.

^ i actually decided today to didge a 20% quality high lvl poachers mark in favor of a normal lvl 5 enfeeble on a low cwdt, since i reckon on 76+ maps, creeps losing 20% of damage will vastly out perform the 10 mana on hit gained.

Also dropped vengeance with this build since it has little value to me.
(i am an attack speed based 2-hand sword wielder, vengeance has an extremely low performance rate for fast builds, be they 2-hand or not)

I am also leveling up a vaal molten shell atm, academy boss is a serious issue with my set-up due to low DoT protection (mom does not work on it) and him being a pure physical spell user.
(my armor prevents me from manually casting IC)

so i am thinking vaal molten shell might do the trick to burst him down before he burst's me down. I got an uptime of 17 seconds on it (duration gem 18/20 atm) so it actually proves to be quite good outside of boss fights also. Linked with conc effect and mana leach + duration (might replace conc with fire pen, not sure what would come out on top)

Keeping on tinkering how to make this build work <.<, well it works, but i want it to be viable in 100%+ 77+ maps.

More on topic of your post pants.

I still have to find out if the MgoH i lose will be detrimental or not. Only ran 4 maps today since it's the holiday season and i just wanted to level up the new gems a bit. will report back when i test this set-up with leveld gems in high and dangerous content.

The flat mana regen instead of mana on kill sounds like a fantastic route to consider for revelry, however it would be hard to balance since that side of the tree lacks a lot of mana regen. And it is also available on gear in high amounts. (60% being max value i think?)

Opposed to mana leach which has very low quantity's available on gear imo. Flat mana regen scales extremely hard with mana regen% modifiers. I think it would just result in another mana regen based MoM.
I would not mind that, but i feel there is a clear option now to put some mana leach in the duelist area and then improve that leach rate with nodes behind MoM itself.

Creating a melee MoM variant and a caster's variant.

Also, yes, shadow is OP they totally overdid the sucker. Mana leach should have been a property between marauder and duelist.(pure phys leach)

And shadow could have kept his 2%, but instead make it global (spells/ele/phys dps) to keep his identity.

Peace,

-Boem-

(same here btw, just keeping this thread alive in the hopes to see something change for this poor
key-stone/duelist :p while i enjoy the jolly season)

I didn't really miss the point of my thread, the point I was trying to make is that if you are building a "duelist" type character, MoM is probably the last thing you want. Unless there is some ultra niche item that can make it work, it will just be way too much investment for very little return. MoM isn't going to work well for a build that is going to be in the position of constantly taking damage, which is precisely where a duelist/marauder is going to be in.

The reasons are obvious, if you are doing MoM and you are going to be taking consistant damage, then you need to invest in MoM + mana and evasion or armor quite a bit

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deteego wrote:

I didn't really miss the point of my thread, the point I was trying to make is that if you are building a "duelist" type character, MoM is probably the last thing you want. Unless there is some ultra niche item that can make it work, it will just be way too much investment for very little return. MoM isn't going to work well for a build that is going to be in the position of constantly taking damage, which is precisely where a duelist/marauder is going to be in.

The reasons are obvious, if you are doing MoM and you are going to be taking consistant damage, then you need to invest in MoM + mana and evasion or armor quite a bit

Well yeah :D, that's why i made this thread in the hopes that it might be looked at and revised.

So it does not become a no-return-investment in the future. Honestly it works "mkay" atm, but that's just it, "mkay" does not cover 76+ maps atm with high modifiers.

And there is a lot of potential to make this key-stone an asset to the duelist side of the tree instead of a thorn.

Peace,

-Boem-

New years bump, happy hunting all.

Peace,

-Boem-

IMO MoM is terrible even with 500 regen sec. It's conditional. OOM dead in the water both casting and your defenese scheme.

Not only that what does it give? 30% more EHP- sometimes.

Lightning coil gives that all the time.

Not only that with coil you can run more aura over power purities etc and get 30% more elemental mitigation than base cap of 75%, again thats always on.

Meanwhile MoM, due to having to have free mana limits your aura capabilities.

^ MoM is an (AR/EV, EV/ES or EV/Acro) + Ondar's gig. It's not a question of when you get hit, but how often you get hit; then it converts mana into EHP (at a risk/drawback, as with all good things), thereby allowing you to take and recover from harder hits.

If you're attempting to facetank all the things with MoM, then urdoinitrong (been there, done that).

Edit: there are a few ways to skin this cat, but generally speaking, unless you're super specced (e.g., Acuity) or making some very niche trade-offs (e.g., Thief's Torment), the above is true.

Yeah I hate all those RNG scenarios. Even when max block was 75% spell/phys It was too risky for me. (shameless promotion):P You might enjoy my supertank build. Its basically immune to damage. Absorbs it before it come in. You can fine tune to any skill or class I just used incinerate.

And yeah all the best "defensive" builds use massive instant leech with huge 10-15K ES pool. They simply take the hits and instant back to full health. As an added bonus they do some of the best DPS in the game. Problem is $$$$.