Feedback / MoM + duelist

First of all, this feedback will be biased since i am playing a char around this concept atm.

But i would like to touch upon some issue's i have encountered so far.

Lack of inteligence

This is a very troublesome issue, for this keystone to be functional, one need intelligence in it's set of attributes.

I have come to the conclusion that this is a very hard task for a duelist to accomplish. This is highlighted by the required intelligence for the "clarity" aura.

At lvl 75 currently i have (if i am not mistaken) 96 intelligence, contributed by gear, mana flow key-node, the +30 intel on the left of his area and the +20 intel/dex hybrid node at the marauder.

This allows a lvl 11 clarity (again if i am not mistaken) to be run actively.

This issue is two-fold, at one side intelligence provides flat mana a necessity for this key-stone to function on the other hand the intelligence is required to run skills aligned with it.(in this case clarity)

Lack of mana leach

So far i have around 30% reduced cost of skills combined (quality conc effect, luckily provides this also) but on this part of the passive tree, mana leach is absent. Obviously i have already taken revelry.

Obviously this can be provided by gear or a gem slot, but there is a reason why this is out of the question for a duelist going MoM.

1) this gear is hard to come by, don't get me wrong btw, it can be crafted by masters etc so there is that. However for a duelist (assuming melee) to utilize MoM one requires gear with

- life
- minimum of double resist
- flat mana
- intelligence (optional)

This puts a lot of restraint on gearing progression for a char trying to utilize this key-stone.

The gem slot is a fallacy because of the simple reason, if you are out of mana, you can't hit and thus the gem slot becomes wasted with this set-up. (also reduced dps, less efficiency on all fronts, dps/clear speed/leach rate etc etc)

Some suggestions and thoughts while playing this character so far

- provide additional intelligence and maybe some "flat mana" on the current mana key-nodes.

imo all of the key-nodes around mana% should get a +10 intel attached to them around the marauder/duelist area, the +30 won't cut it and is usually very pathway prohibiting.

- another route would be to place 2 nodes behind MoM, these could contain

"20% more intelligence and 2% mana leach", now this might sound broken to you, but if the amount of intelligence at that area stays relatively the same, it really won't be.

"20% more mana regen and 40 flat mana" again, given the value's i am experiencing right now, this might seem a lot, but it is not.

This in return would buff this key-node for the duelist over the CoD unique.

Currently at lvl 75 i have 680 mana total, 380 unreserved so i can't even begin to utilize this key-node (lol).

I will link my gear, i will say that it is nowhere near optimized and i will update this thread as i level more and gear up better.



ironically, CoD is the best armor option for this build (LMAO) nullifying the investment in the node itself.

Current passive tree utilized for leveling up.


As you can see, a tiny investment in mana has been made so far, there just are not enough points atm to justify it.
The result is that i am leveling to probably 85+ and then will respec and utilize better gear and pray to the gods i have a workable MoM set-up.

Projected passive tree design.



As you can see, also only 93 intelligence from the tree and this is at lvl 99 or something lmao.
Very troubling. The passive tree complementing the key-stone atm is lacking.

Hope this made some sense to whomever reads this at GGG.

Peace and have a good one,

-Boem-

Edit1 :

Adding additional suggestions to improve MoM in its current placement while i play this character.
It is natural that i wan't to increase the strength of this key-stone since i am utilizing it, so take these with a grain of salt, however i am trying to be objective as to not make it insanely OP, which i believe would require a massive overhaul to happen :').

"

Boem wrote:

Additional suggestion

- a node behind MoM that increases mana leach effective rate% and optionally %mana leach.(note this node would be behind the MoM key-stone, so not available to all duelist arche-types)

It has come to my attention while playing this character that regeneration is not the way to go, the nodes are to far away and it is extremely taxing on gear to find pieces with all the stats combined.

Obviously, mana regeneration is welcome in all the amounts one can muster while creating this type of character.

However, mana leach is quite effective given the duelist is a master of combat and should posses a fair amount of physical damage, but again, because of the restriction of "flat intelligence" and "flat mana base" the effect of the leach is rendered to a minimum.

Thus instead of increasing the total amount of mana (which imo, should also receive some love) maybe another route would be to optimize the mana leach to have more potency on a lower total amount of mana instead.

MoM is just in the wrong place in the tree. It should be in the large blank area west of the witches starting elemental nodes.

CoD wouldn't have needed a nerf and it wouldn't be so popular if MoM wasn't placed in a ridiculous impossible to transverse position on the tree for 90% of those wanted it.

Then CoD would have been nice for duelists or rangers or maybe non spell shadows and no one else really would have cared much since the extra 10% MoM required massive free mana pool to utilize.

Just another instance of GGG not understanding what the real design problem was and nerfing something that didn't need it.

aside from the very build (that i was pretty much certain will end as a flop..) the MoM itself is not good for melee in general

close combat combat + MoM == almost certain OOM due to continuous damage. OOM for melee == certain death. if one relies on MoM + AA to mitigate phys reflect this is even more so.

MoM is very nice for sporadic big hits as these are pretty much cut by 30% (previously 40%). but if one takes several moderate hits and has no way to regain mana -> OOM -> [resurrect]

this build shows clearly that 'building out of role' gets harder and harder with each patch and meta shift. the only Duelist MoM build i can think of is the Bow archetype with very good mana recovery (Thiefs Torment?) because building big pool is pretty much impossible - recovery is the only way

"

Zaanus wrote:

MoM is just in the wrong place in the tree. It should be in the large blank area west of the witches starting elemental nodes.

CoD wouldn't have needed a nerf and it wouldn't be so popular if MoM wasn't placed in a ridiculous impossible to transverse position on the tree for 90% of those wanted it.

Then CoD would have been nice for duelists or rangers or maybe non spell shadows and no one else really would have cared much since the extra 10% MoM required massive free mana pool to utilize.

Just another instance of GGG not understanding what the real design problem was and nerfing something that didn't need it.

While i understand your position, i respectfully disagree.

I think MoM is a nice defensive measure for 2-hand users for example, it just requires a certain investment and the possibility for that investment is lacking atm in that side of the tree.
(this is assuming 2-handers do respectable damage so can forfeit the utility of aura's, call me a dreamer huh?)

I think it's location and CoD's state are ok atm, now it just requires some fine-tuning to make this
key-stone actually usable in it's current tree position in relation to nodes near by.

that is to say, if it was placed there "just to prohibit easy acces for witches" then at least it should be usable by the classes near it imo.
(as in, OP for witches, usable for ranger/duelist/marauder to an extent)

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : tl;dr : i think it's placement is ok, but needs work.

"

sidtherat wrote:

aside from the very build (that i was pretty much certain will end as a flop..) the MoM itself is not good for melee in general

close combat combat + MoM == almost certain OOM due to continuous damage. OOM for melee == certain death. if one relies on MoM + AA to mitigate phys reflect this is even more so.

MoM is very nice for sporadic big hits as these are pretty much cut by 30% (previously 40%). but if one takes several moderate hits and has no way to regain mana -> OOM -> [resurrect]

this build shows clearly that 'building out of role' gets harder and harder with each patch and meta shift. the only Duelist MoM build i can think of is the Bow archetype with very good mana recovery (Thiefs Torment?) because building big pool is pretty much impossible - recovery is the only way

all fair points sir.

I am quite known for my querky builds and i have no issue with that. I like to pioneer retarded concepts and MAKE IT WORK! Which i will attempt again with this idea this league. All of my previeus querky builds where lvl 78 map viable in 140%+ maps, i am hoping to do the same with this one.(viable =/= efficient)

Vengeance is actually a very solid gem for this set-up since it can cover a portion of the "oom" issue you describe. (not sure if you can see my link set-up in my linked gear?) And of course i will combine that with some more tricks etc.

Corruptions for instance can also help a lot (damage to mana like battle rouse), but again this just puts the entire concept and build behind a gear limitation, which imo should not necessarily be the case.

Peace,

-Boem-

Edit : also i am already 100% immune to physical damage atm, so MoM will only serve to block spell/elemental sources of damage.

"

Boem wrote:

but again this just puts the entire concept and build behind a gear limitation, which imo should not necessarily be the case.

bingo

with and corrupted rings and amuletts you can get 30%+ of damage taken gained as mana when hit, then you need a big enough mana pool to make efficent use of it what gonna be next to impossible because you would have to travell to eldritch battery as a duellist

^i have considered those items btw.

mindspiral WOULD be perfect, if it still allowed leach.

I am going out of my way with this build to get mana regen%, but preferebly a build like this should run of mana leach(more in line with a duelist tree imo)

And mindspiral makes that obsolete.

The boots i disregarded instantly because of lack of life/resis.

Mindspiral has the same fault but at least it offer 100 mana (a lot of base mana)

So 2 rings could be sacrificed to gain the resistances from there.(2x 50 mana on rings traded with 100 from spiral)

and yes i am looking into corruptions stormhunter. But they are luck based and there are no unique bases for a build like this. So i am effectively buying the markets

life
mana
mana regen
whatever

amulets etc and corrupting them, like the on i am using now a failed result :p.



Trying to corrupt the belt for aoe/endurance charges as-well since it has great synergy with this build.

Gloves are amazing for this type of build, obvious craft is obvious.

Peace,

-Boem-

Edit : currently i have 480 mana not reserved, i was told i need at least 600 to 800 free mana to make MoM work? so with additional mana% investment and gear this will work imo.

Good feedback, i agree, and MoM has a wierd spot considering its obviously designed for mana users and that area of the tree just cant get enough mana for it.

But i have a solution for you, altough you might not like its kind of the only way to make it viable without going EB or COD:

Swap the life leech gem for BM gem, use bloodrage instead, you dont lose any damage or leech, youll likely be capped with a leveled BR anyway.

Tree for your level:
you will have more life, more damage and almost double the regen which allows you to run BR safely and get life leech for free

it has more than enough regen for you to run bloodrage to get enough leech and a bit of mana regen too, since you wont be using mana and you already have some mana regen mods on gear more of it is not necesarry in my opinion.


Tree for level 90, just to give you a track to what to go for next:

^i have considered this route victor.

But another problem arises when you do this, you lose a gem slot (equivalent of around 20% of total dps value) on top of that, MoM forces you to sacrifice a 60% aura (minimum) which is another big chunk of dps gone.

So if you do all of that together, you get a build that is actually prolonging fight's thus decreasing his ehp value's while stressing the MoM shield more then necessary.

I am soon gonna hit 77 and i will do a trial run of a 70 map with MoM active on a 480 free mana pool.

I shall report back after that map is cleared or i lost 6 portals.

Peace,

-Boem-

(also, playing atm, i will look at your passive tree's later victor, maybe i will learn some cool alternate routes etc :p)