So i did the first Uber atziri as 2h melee[recorded it], my feedback.

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Moosifer wrote:

What was your max res for all 3 w/ flasks up? You have me considering this now.

I had 90% fire and 89% lightning, used the purity auras for the atziri fight along with hatred.

2h melee vs uber Artiri isn't a good sign to display balance, a ton of other builds cannot do Uber Artizri because it requires certain mechanics you have to use to beat her.

Like extremely overcap resist, instant movement, hugh amounts of block and spell block and ect. Almost no builds can do ubers in D2 unless they were ultra tanky, ultra high resist max block + attack speed and crushing blow either.

2h melee requires a buff in general but just saying.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

2h melee vs uber Artiri isn't a good sign to display balance, a ton of other builds cannot do Uber Artizri because it requires certain mechanics you have to use to beat her.

Like extremely overcap resist, instant movement, hugh amounts of block and spell block and ect. Almost no builds can do ubers in D2 unless they were ultra tanky, ultra high resist max block + attack speed and crushing blow either.

2h melee requires a buff in general but just saying.

i know not all builds can do uber, but those are specific builds, 2h is a character archetype, its a big part of the game, a weapon of choice that you build around, 1h,bow,wand can all do ubers, but with 2h its almost impossible unless you have very good gear, acuities and legacy kaoms.

Thats why im showing it at ubers, and im also pointing out how ridiculous it is that the fight has been in the game for months and im the only player that did ubers as 2h. It really needs to be buffed.

Compared to other weapon choices 2h is the weakest by far.

aside from all the factual talk...

I would like to see 2h do crit and daggers for example be much faster but very low crit.

imho 2h are able to dish out more crit in real life or am I mistaking?

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Antigegner wrote:

imho 2h are able to dish out more crit in real life or am I mistaking?

Chance - hell no, multiplier - hell yes.

If you use light weapons you typically have better control and higher crit chance, which PoE kinda honors. Claws, daggers, scepters and staves all have higher crit base, scepters an staves are especially interesting as lighter versions of heavy blunt weapons - mace and maul.

On the other hand, heavy weapons should indeed be hard to strike a crit with, but should do devastating damage when they do, which is a concept that PoE kinda ignores, with rapiers being the only weapons with implicit crit multiplier, while by all aspects they should be categorized as crit weapons.

The truth is, both of these concepts are handled in a highly simplistic way, or not at all. What defines hits with a weapon are four things:
- weight and speed (impulse)
- handling and precision
- impact pressure (surface area affected)
- wound shape (roughly - piercing, slashing and blunt)

So, it turns out we need more stats than the ones we currently got.
What we're lacking are most notably armor penetration and target weight category. For instance, if you strike a monkey or one of those tiny ursas with a maul and hit an armored part the armor will protect it as its mass is low, but we will have high stun potential, but if we hit an earth elemental in an armored part we should get high armor penetration but low stun potential due to its high mass.

If we take a look at claws and daggers they should get similar crit chance as finesse weapons and be pretty similar overall, but the difference would be in usage and damage type, daggers could be defined as strictly piercing weapons and claws as slashing (not very realistic but would be good for variety).
Now, that would change a lot about their stats and make them significantly different, if we take a look at attack speed, claws would be faster, as slashing strikes are easier to pull off and affect your balance less, investing less of your weight which also means you do less damage per hit as most of the weight of the blows made using light weapons comes from your body.
Both weapons are light and should have similar handling, which would result in similar critical chance with slight edge on dagger side because of more focused motions. Chance to hit should also be highest on daggers, claws and rapiers (which should probably have the best crit chance of all weapons).
Daggers also have more strike pressure, so armor penetration should be higher.
However, if we classify a critical hit as a strike to an unprotected spot, claws should have higher crit damage because of damage type (slashing > piercing > blunt). Of course, 2H weapons should have higher crit multiplier than either claws or daggers simply because of higher impact power.

Yes, that would also mean ranged weapons should have the lowest crit chance and reduced chance to hit, as just hitting the enemy from distance requires more skill than with a melee weapon.

All this means defense would also need more stats. The way GGG envisioned it, you should actually have highest evasion score by going naked (but not by going ES, it probably offers some kind of kinetic barrier which slows down your movements as well as incoming blows).

This kind of calculations can make for a highly realistic weapon behavior, however they're probably too complex for a game like this. The best attempt I saw recently would probably be Dragon Age Origins, they didn't get everything right but it was a very nice effort.

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VictorDoom wrote:

I had 90% fire and 89% lightning, used the purity auras for the atziri fight along with hatred.

I was able to get the purities to give 9% max and flasks go up to 13%.

So while you'd have to give up damage or life to do it, you could get the purities to 8% max and if you went for the 2 power charges and the flask passives next to the 2nd one, that's another 3%. So from 90% from to 97%. While you wouldn't be able to ignore the damage like me, I assume with the gloves and a 6-7k life pool you could easily leech back the 2-3k damage it did to you. I had a +1 max ammy, if you got a +1 max kaoms you could have 99% which would make you effectively immune to all of her damage (w/ IC up) except the double 10 stack flameblast which has fire pen.

So....ya not as hard as you think just have to think differently about the fight. If you can't (or in my case are too lazy) to dodge the damage you just have to find a way to ignore it.

Really wish you talked to me sooner vic. I told you I had a game breaking build a while back and it wasn't because of it's DPS.

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raics wrote:

For instance, if you strike a monkey or one of those tiny ursas with a maul and hit an armored part the armor will protect it

If you strike a monkey with a maul it should just splash under the maul :)

I'd like to see a 2hander specific "magic resistance" stat that stacks separately from elemental resists. It'd give 2hander characters a way to overcap on resists, except without the current additive nature of overcap that makes it hard to balance. Kinda like a phase acrobatics but for 2handers. At least some way to gain necessary defences without giving up too much power.

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Moosifer wrote:

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VictorDoom wrote:

I had 90% fire and 89% lightning, used the purity auras for the atziri fight along with hatred.

I was able to get the purities to give 9% max and flasks go up to 13%.

So while you'd have to give up damage or life to do it, you could get the purities to 8% max and if you went for the 2 power charges and the flask passives next to the 2nd one, that's another 3%. So from 90% from to 97%. While you wouldn't be able to ignore the damage like me, I assume with the gloves and a 6-7k life pool you could easily leech back the 2-3k damage it did to you. I had a +1 max ammy, if you got a +1 max kaoms you could have 99% which would make you effectively immune to all of her damage (w/ IC up) except the double 10 stack flameblast which has fire pen.

So....ya not as hard as you think just have to think differently about the fight. If you can't (or in my case are too lazy) to dodge the damage you just have to find a way to ignore it.

Really wish you talked to me sooner vic. I told you I had a game breaking build a while back and it wasn't because of it's DPS.

i know the max rez tricks but i dont like them, sacrificing so much life means potentially getting 2 shot by her spears, and if i mess up my flasks im dead for sure, i do tend to mess up my flasks
Basically id have like 86% fire resistance normally and like 6k life? Kind of the same thing apart from making spears more dangerous

Im getting to level 100 now and stacking movement speed to dodge the damage, thats the best way to do it on a 2h char, high movement speed, i will be at around 56% movement speed without flasks. (17% from tree, got a atziris step corrupted with 4% movespeed and master craft belt with 5%, with 30% from boots, i also got a +1 level atziris step i corrupted yesterday butd i think the 4% movespeed is better)

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VictorDoom wrote:

i know the max rez tricks but i dont like them, sacrificing so much life means potentially getting 2 shot by her spears, and if i mess up my flasks im dead for sure, i do tend to mess up my flasks
Basically id have like 86% fire resistance normally and like 6k life? Kind of the same thing apart from making spears more dangerous

Im getting to level 100 now and stacking movement speed to dodge the damage, thats the best way to do it on a 2h char, high movement speed, i will be at around 56% movement speed without flasks. (17% from tree, got a atziris step corrupted with 4% movespeed and master craft belt with 5%, with 30% from boots, i also got a +1 level atziris step i corrupted yesterday butd i think the 4% movespeed is better)

Well in fairness don't complain about it 2hers being ineffective while avoiding the more effective option. I think your DPS is fine and going the route of physical avoiding damage lowers your eDPS but raising your res will allow you stand a bang longer, but like you said gotta watch the spears which means having to self cast IC during the fight with her.

I think with some adjustments it could be a much easier fight, lower your sheet dps for edps and much higher defenses.