So i did the first Uber atziri as 2h melee[recorded it], my feedback.

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raics wrote:

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VictorDoom wrote:

Its my view that 2h builds are mostly focused on dealing damage, since they sacrifice a shield in favour of a high damage weapon they should theortically do more damage than 1h + shield, for example, logically, they should be able to dish out more dps than a guy wielding a wand or a dagger/sword, but they dont and they also have a lot less survivability than any of those builds, which is why im suggesting that they buff both. 2h is completely lacking in any proper damage mitigation like block or high resists and it also dishes out one of the lowest dps from all build archetypes, which makes no fucking sense.

I agree with your assessment but I would sooner try nerfing game mechanics which make one-handed weapons strong. You don't fight power creep by making non-ridiculous game elements ridiculous too.

Namely, I'd address damage scaling on weapons, fast weapons are this good because increased damage affects rolled flat damage too.

So, instead (base + flat) * (increased + quality),
I'd make it (base) * (increased + quality) + flat

That wouldn't fix the problem completely but would make it less insane at least.
And crit, crit needs a big tonedown too, but that's nothing new, I guess.

...
Sweet soundtrack in the video, by the way.

Im thinking the other way around really, it just seems like most of the game is designed around these ridiculous mechanics, so the things that got left behind, like 2h, cant deal with the endgame anymore as well as the other builds, which is why they need to get buffed heavily to play a part in the game and to give the player an actual choice between going 1h or 2h, to have a proper option and balance between the two i think 2h needs to get buffed and no necessarily nerf 1h(too much).. id nerf specific weapons like daggers and wands, 1h maces, axes etc are okay where they are

same with the crit problem, its better to just buff non crit since monster life and damage seem to have been selected around the strong crit 1h+shield or ranged chars the only thing nerfing these builds will do is just make it slightly harder for them to kill stuff while 2h stays as shitty as before. Id even go as far to say that they should buff crit on 2h, since apart from staffs there arent any other effective weapons to go crit with

Happy you like the music :)

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VictorDoom wrote:

Im thinking the other way around really, it just seems like most of the game is designed around these ridiculous mechanics, so the things that got left behind, like 2h, cant deal with the endgame anymore as well as the other builds, which is why they need to get buffed heavily to play a part in the game and to give the player an actual choice between going 1h or 2h, to have a proper option and balance between the two i think 2h needs to get buffed and no necessarily nerf 1h(too much).. id nerf specific weapons like daggers and wands, 1h maces, axes etc are okay where they are

same with the crit problem, its better to just buff non crit since monster life and damage seem to have been selected around the strong crit 1h+shield or ranged chars the only thing nerfing these builds will do is just make it slightly harder for them to kill stuff while 2h stays as shitty as before. Id even go as far to say that they should buff crit on 2h, since apart from staffs there arent any other effective weapons to go crit with

Happy you like the music :)

Don't worry, we'll sooner see elephants fly than them doing what I suggested. A lot of things around here are made possible only because crit is as ridiculous as it is. And if they did to weapons what I propose, the gap between perfect and mediocre rolls would reduce, hurting the economy.

If you think about it, needing only one good item in your hand slots instead of two also hurts the economy :)

Honestly, I wouldn't hold my breath, the best we can hope for is a boost to 2H weapon base damage (again) and an increase to flat damage rolls (also again). An even if 2H weapons dished far superior damage it would be for naught as long as we don't need that damage.

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VictorDoom wrote:

My build: Passive skill tree build

(...)

They need to buff these characters, some form of damage mitigation on 2h nodes is needed, not necessarily life but bonus to endurance charge mitigation, armor, evasion, movement speed, max resists maybe.

You want more "damage mitigation", but don't take the 19% (?) staff block right along your path.

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But since 2h weapons have no crit, apart from staves, every 2h build takes RT, which makes it a nobrainer keystone since hitting all of the time is better than having 15% crit chance, it's exactly the thing they want to avoid, making mandatory passives.

How do you get the number "15%"?
5% base + tier 1 crit affix = 6.9
3 points in "pure brutality" = +140%
That's already 16.56% crit chance.
With the same "investment" as taking RT, nothing else. No crit gear, no further crit passives.


And no, RT is not better than 15% crit.
Depending on the multiplier and crit chance, even 15% already provides higher DpS than RT.
85% to hit and 200% multi would already provide "even" DpS (0*0.15+ 2*0.15*x + 0.7*x = x).
Again, 85% chance to hit and 200% multi are like "no investment whatsoever".

Once you start stacking crit stuff, RT doesn't stand a chance.

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But the dps should also be improved so they are on par with other characters

A twohander has about 150% of the base damage of a onehander.
On mirrored items and on "items of comparable quality/price" for a budget.

That's like a free "50% more damage" support gem, and it is the only advantage a twohanded has over onehanded builds.

By choosing a main attack with Blood Magic support instead of a serious damage support gem, you're already giving this advantage away, it's just gone.
Like it was never there, you are now basically playing with a onehander, but without a shield.
Congratulations.

There's a reason why literally no Dagger build out there ever uses this gem in his 6L.
But 99% of twohanded builds somehow insist on ruining their damage output with it.

Does the game itself have to be changed, or does the mindset of the player base need to be "buffed"? ;)

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Peterlerock wrote:

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VictorDoom wrote:

My build: Passive skill tree build

(...)

They need to buff these characters, some form of damage mitigation on 2h nodes is needed, not necessarily life but bonus to endurance charge mitigation, armor, evasion, movement speed, max resists maybe.

You want more "damage mitigation", but don't take the 19% (?) staff block right along your path.

No point in spending so many points for block when doing ubers, theyre much better off ins oemthing more useuful, also 19% is gobshite for the amount of points you have to waste on it.

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Peterlerock wrote:

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But since 2h weapons have no crit, apart from staves, every 2h build takes RT, which makes it a nobrainer keystone since hitting all of the time is better than having 15% crit chance, it's exactly the thing they want to avoid, making mandatory passives.

How do you get the number "15%"?
5% base + tier 1 crit affix = 6.9
3 points in "pure brutality" = +140%
That's already 16.56% crit chance.
With the same "investment" as taking RT, nothing else. No crit gear, no further crit passives.


And no, RT is not better than 15% crit.
Depending on the multiplier and crit chance, even 15% already provides higher DpS than RT.
85% to hit and 200% multi would already provide "even" DpS (0*0.15+ 2*0.15*x + 0.7*x = x).
Again, 85% chance to hit and 200% multi are like "no investment whatsoever".

Once you start stacking crit stuff, RT doesn't stand a chance.

Most people use a 5% crit weapon, because there arent many tier 1 crit ones, and the ones that have those mods are pretty expensive.

5% crit chance, with 140% from pure brutality and lets say you manage to get like 160% from gear youre at 15% chance to crit, id rather go RT than focus on crit on gear and passives rather than defensive mods which are more important considering you dont have any block or high rez/eva/armor

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Peterlerock wrote:

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But the dps should also be improved so they are on par with other characters

A twohander has about 150% of the base damage of a onehander.
On mirrored items and on "items of comparable quality/price" for a budget.

That's like a free "50% more damage" support gem, and it is the only advantage a twohanded has over onehanded builds.

By choosing a main attack with Blood Magic support instead of a serious damage support gem, you're already giving this advantage away, it's just gone.
Like it was never there, you are now basically playing with a onehander, but without a shield.
Congratulations.

There's a reason why literally no Dagger build out there ever uses this gem in his 6L.
But 99% of twohanded builds somehow insist on ruining their damage output with it.

Does the game itself have to be changed, or does the mindset of the player base need to be "buffed"? ;)

2h has no advantage over 1h weapons, because 1h passives are much better, the damage you get from 2h doesnt matter when the increase for 1h is much better and getting crit with 1h is much easier.

Theres also a reason i use blood magic, so i dont run out of mana and die because cyclone is the only truly viable skill for a 2h char and it costs a lot of mana which as a str/dex based char leaves you with using BM as your only option, even with acuities you run out of mana with it in city of sarn lol, you cant single target anything or make short cyclones withotu running out of mana, its utter shite without EB or BM.

The game has to be changed, yes.

Here are my thoughts from another 2-H-sucks-donkey-balls thread.

There are two interesting things in passive tree:
1) There can be nodes after Keystones (check Chaos Inoculation and Acrobatics)
2) There can be special debuffs from weapon hits (check Adder's Touch)

Also, Critical Strikes are more or less viable in therms of DPS and crit-oriented 2Hander happens to have Block on it. So Staffs are a little better than non-crit ones (by no means I say that staffs are good enough, they just do not suck as hard as other 2Handers).

I suggest to add the following three clusters after Resolute Technique:
One Handed/Unarmed Cluster


Two Handed Cluster


Projectile Cluster

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VictorDoom wrote:

No point in spending so many points for block when doing ubers, theyre much better off ins oemthing more useuful, also 19% is gobshite for the amount of points you have to waste on it.

This "gobshite" would have gotten you to about the same amount of block the usual crit dagger build has going (shield + no passives).
If it's fine for them and they have sufficient defenses all of a sudden, why shouldn't it be fine for you?

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Most people use a 5% crit weapon, because there arent many tier 1 crit ones, and the ones that have those mods are pretty expensive.

As most people have the same mindset as yours ("crit not worth it unless crit weapon"), crit affixes add close to nothing to the price of a sword/axe/mace.

Also: since when is the price/rarity of an item a reasonable argument concerning balancing? ;)

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2h has no advantage over 1h weapons, because 1h passives are much better, the damage you get from 2h doesnt matter when the increase for 1h is much better and getting crit with 1h is much easier.

I'm not saying "2h is better than 1h".
I'm saying:
When looking at 2h, the only benefit you get is the higher base damage.
This base damage is equal to a 7th gem (close to another "melee physical damage gem").
That's one advantage.

It doesn't make it better overall, but it's like the only reason to grab a twohander, because it is the only thing you get over a onehander.

You gave this advantage away.
I don't care for the reason (with, this skill, can't sustain mana, don't want to deal with mana, whatever), the point still stands:
You give up the only advantage of a twohanded weapon.

This game will be changed, it has been changed numerous times.

However I'm not sure if it would be beneficial to change it in a way suggested here or in other "twohanders can't compete" threads.

Hey Peter why are you arguing with him when you haven't done Uber atziri? Like at all lol

I provide math. That's facts.

What does killing a boss provide?

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Peterlerock wrote:

I provide math. That's facts.

What does killing a boss provide?

Pure proof? Wth he even recorded what have you done? NOTHING you haven't done a dam thing not even attempt it.

TWO different things

SAYING it and DOING IT

DO the thing before you try to argue with the guy that's just annoying.

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I_NO wrote:

SAYING it and DOING IT

DO the thing before you try to argue with the guy that's just annoying.

I'm not arguing anything related to the Uber Atziri fight.
I'm not even disagreeing with him.
I think this game has serious issues with bosses being extremly tougher for melee builds. Not because melee is bad, but because boss fight mechanics are putting melee into all the hurt, while ranged can dodge 90% of it with ease.

I'm just arguing basic stuff like "RT is better than 15% crit" (no, it's not) or "twohanders need a damage buff" (imho, no, they don't, they already have serious damage).