So i did the first Uber atziri as 2h melee[recorded it], my feedback.

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firemind13 wrote:

Here are my thoughts from another 2-H-sucks-donkey-balls thread.

There are two interesting things in passive tree:
1) There can be nodes after Keystones (check Chaos Inoculation and Acrobatics)
2) There can be special debuffs from weapon hits (check Adder's Touch)

Also, Critical Strikes are more or less viable in therms of DPS and crit-oriented 2Hander happens to have Block on it. So Staffs are a little better than non-crit ones (by no means I say that staffs are good enough, they just do not suck as hard as other 2Handers).

I suggest to add the following three clusters after Resolute Technique:
One Handed/Unarmed Cluster

Spoiler

-- One Handed Melee Damage and Defence --
10% increased Melee Damage while Dual Wielding or holding a Shield
10% increased Armor, Evasion and Energy Shield

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-- One Handed Melee Damage and Defence --
10% increased Melee Damage while Dual Wielding or holding a Shield
10% increased Armor, Evasion and Energy Shield
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== Inexorable Strikes ==
Melee Damage penetrates 10% Armor and Resistances while Dual Wielding or holding a Shield

while Dual Wielding or holding a Shield because I wanted to cover Facebreakers, 1H+Shield and Dual Wield in this cluster.
Melee Damage because I wanted to cover Physical, Elemental and Chaos skills, but exclude stuff like Spectral Throw.
penetrates 10% of Armor means that damage calculation will take 90% of target's armor instead of 100%.

The logic is that one 1Handers are easier to control and aim than 2Handers or ranged weapons, so a skilled fighter should pass enemy's protection. Game already has crits, but the whole flavor of Resolute Tecnique keystone screams for something not chance-based and mechanics of RT does not allow you to crit

Two Handed Cluster

Spoiler

-- Two Handed Melee Damage and Range--
12% increased Melee Damage with Two Handed Melee Weapons
+1 Two Handed Melee Weapon Range

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-- Two Handed Melee Damage and Range--
12% increased Melee Damage with Two Handed Melee Weapons
+1 Two Handed Melee Weapon Range

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== Determined Assault ==
24% more Melee Damage with Two Handed Melee Weapons
+1 Two Handed Melee Weapon Range
5% increased Movement Speed
Melee Hits with Two Handed Melee Weapons Wane the enemy

Wane the enemy applies a debuff "Waned": 10% less Damage, 20% reduced Critical Strike Multiplier

The logic behind this notable is that a little more range and mobility pushes the danger away and, well, it is not easy to attack a person who skillfully swings a 2Hander near you (RT assumes quite some skill)

Projectile Cluster

Spoiler

-- Projectile Attack Damage --
10% increased Projectile Attack Damage

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-- Projectile Attack Damage --
10% increased Projectile Attack Damage

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== Calculated Shots ==
10% reduced Projectile Speed
Projectile Attacks deal up to 30% more damage to targets as the projectile travels further

Yes, the Far Shot. Most bow and wand users are crit-based nowdays, so not chance-based alternative can't hurt. Also sniping imho fits the RT flavor

That is a brilliant idea for RT builds to get buffed finally and the nodes are really attractive, worth losing crit for.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

"

VictorDoom wrote:

No point in spending so many points for block when doing ubers, theyre much better off ins oemthing more useuful, also 19% is gobshite for the amount of points you have to waste on it.

This "gobshite" would have gotten you to about the same amount of block the usual crit dagger build has going (shield + no passives).
If it's fine for them and they have sufficient defenses all of a sudden, why shouldn't it be fine for you?

Its a 9 point investment for 19% block chance and some IPD, shield people get all of that for free, thats why its not fine, its 9 points which are much better off spent somewhere else, also shields if im not mistaken also have resistances, damage and life/massive es, its not only the block chance that matters. They also have a lot more DPS than 2h with around the same point investment in damage, and they also have the shield which gives free block chance and defenses.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

Most people use a 5% crit weapon, because there arent many tier 1 crit ones, and the ones that have those mods are pretty expensive.

As most people have the same mindset as yours ("crit not worth it unless crit weapon"), crit affixes add close to nothing to the price of a sword/axe/mace.

Also: since when is the price/rarity of an item a reasonable argument concerning balancing? ;)

Most people have the same "mindset" as mine because its the best way to do the 2h characters lol, you are not revolutionizing anything by going mana, theres a lot of people including me who tried to go mana and crit, its shit, thats why people dont do it, not because they didnt think about it.


How the hell is not a reasonable argument concerning balance? why do you think they made acuities the rarest atziri drop? why is shavs so rare? Why are 6links so hard to get? because if its easy to get and its very powerful it means its overpowered. You cant base the game around the assumption that everyone will get max crit 500 pdps 2h weapons.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

"

2h has no advantage over 1h weapons, because 1h passives are much better, the damage you get from 2h doesnt matter when the increase for 1h is much better and getting crit with 1h is much easier.

I'm not saying "2h is better than 1h".
I'm saying:
When looking at 2h, the only benefit you get is the higher base damage.
This base damage is equal to a 7th gem (close to another "melee physical damage gem").
That's one advantage.

It doesn't make it better overall, but it's like the only reason to grab a twohander, because it is the only thing you get over a onehander.

You gave this advantage away.
I don't care for the reason (with, this skill, can't sustain mana, don't want to deal with mana, whatever), the point still stands:
You give up the only advantage of a twohanded weapon.

This game will be changed, it has been changed numerous times.

However I'm not sure if it would be beneficial to change it in a way suggested here or in other "twohanders can't compete" threads.

Its not an advantage if youre forced to give it up.

And if you seriously think 2h builds have serious damage... thats just funny... with a meh mirrored dagger(axn made a better one) i was doing 250k dps tooltip on a god damn CAST ON CRIT build solo, the most ive got on a staff char was around 200-230k tooltip with party auras and full buffs, and this is the most dps a 2h char can have since the mirrored staff is currently the best 2h weapon in game.

i was doing the 250k with a dagger focused on CoC (spell damage, spellcrit, golden dagger)

you can get upwards of 1 million dps with a 1h char while still being tankier than a 2h char and youre trying to tell me that 2h chars have enough dps...

"

VictorDoom wrote:

you can get upwards of 1 million dps with a 1h char while still being tankier than a 2h char and youre trying to tell me that 2h chars have enough dps...

Yeah, this is what I've been saying, they can't buff 2hander damage to get anywhere near that kind of numbers with their attack speed and without crit. And if they by any case do, things will go to the dogs because casters will ask for a boost too and they will have to boost monster health then and there we go towards 'million land' like D3. Every time I see the damage display there I go damn - common sense on vacation again.

This game needs serious downscaling, fortunately we're talking about just a few problematic synergies, not like everything is rotten to the core.

"

raics wrote:

"

VictorDoom wrote:

you can get upwards of 1 million dps with a 1h char while still being tankier than a 2h char and youre trying to tell me that 2h chars have enough dps...

Yeah, this is what I've been saying, they can't buff 2hander damage to get anywhere near that kind of numbers with their attack speed and without crit. And if they by any case do, things will go to the dogs because casters will ask for a boost too and they will have to boost monster health then and there we go towards 'million land' like D3. Every time I see the damage display there I go damn - common sense on vacation again.

This game needs serious downscaling, fortunately we're talking about just a few problematic synergies, not like everything is rotten to the core.

I agree with that, i dont expect or want them to buff 2 handers to that kind of ridiculous dps, as you say its going to turn into millions of damage if they buff everything to that kind of dps, i agree that they should nerf the builds who can 1 shot ubers, not buff everything to that stage and then buff life as you said.

Downscaling the damage of those chars would be good, but 2h would still need a buff in damage in any case since monster life would stay the same

"

VictorDoom wrote:

you can get upwards of 1 million dps with a 1h char while still being tankier than a 2h char and youre trying to tell me that 2h chars have enough dps...

Looking at your video, yes, you have enough DpS.
You were in the hardest zone in the game, a zone that is specifically designed to even challenge the best equipped characters, and that is gated behind a wall of RNG/currency so it's only accessed by those.

And you still were able to finally beat it.
You were punished several times, but you made it.
That seems to me like "it's fine". Hard fight, but you managed to do it.

What I don't like is people being able to casually farm this content.
Some builds have stupid DpS, I know.
But the solution is not to say "look at those DpS numbers, give that tp others, too".

They should be scaled down, the rest shouldn't be scaled up.

lol I was online when you made this attempt but didn't even know. I think it was shortly before I joined the guild and just after you gave up leeching my maps.

I will say your damage is WAY higher than the build I used to face uber, probably 5-10x higher in fact. If I didn't see the incoming damage I would have assumed this was a normal atziri run.

Surprisingly the issues I had (physical damage) you had no issue with and I had no issue with ele damage which, watching the vaal section was fun to see you get mowed over when my roommate watched in disbelief as I didn't even reposition when I faced them.

I knew you did uber but I didn't know it was so recent. Congrats. If 2hers are as weak as being claimed I might have to give one a go.

Also, the impression of what music you listen to is vastly different than what you actually do. I really thought you were a death metal guy but that video is mostly sludge and stoner rock.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

"

VictorDoom wrote:

you can get upwards of 1 million dps with a 1h char while still being tankier than a 2h char and youre trying to tell me that 2h chars have enough dps...

Looking at your video, yes, you have enough DpS.
You were in the hardest zone in the game, a zone that is specifically designed to even challenge the best equipped characters, and that is gated behind a wall of RNG/currency so it's only accessed by those.

And you still were able to finally beat it.
You were punished several times, but you made it.
That seems to me like "it's fine". Hard fight, but you managed to do it.

What I don't like is people being able to casually farm this content.
Some builds have stupid DpS, I know.
But the solution is not to say "look at those DpS numbers, give that tp others, too".

They should be scaled down, the rest shouldn't be scaled up.

yes, i have enough dps with mirrored gear dude, but have you seen what people do with other chars that have mirrored gear? like ST, CoC, Puncture etc? They melt everything much safer and MUCH faster than a 2h char.

If you read the post above i said i dont want the same dps, but a buff is needed for 2h because when you compare chars of similar value and similar amount of points spent in damage nodes the gap is just huge dude between what chars with other weapons do and what 2h can do in terms on dps.. 2h always loses in every aspect, defense, damage and clear speed.

"

Moosifer wrote:

lol I was online when you made this attempt but didn't even know. I think it was shortly before I joined the guild and just after you gave up leeching my maps.

I will say your damage is WAY higher than the build I used to face uber, probably 5-10x higher in fact. If I didn't see the incoming damage I would have assumed this was a normal atziri run.

Surprisingly the issues I had (physical damage) you had no issue with and I had no issue with ele damage which, watching the vaal section was fun to see you get mowed over when my roommate watched in disbelief as I didn't even reposition when I faced them.

I knew you did uber but I didn't know it was so recent. Congrats. If 2hers are as weak as being claimed I might have to give one a go.

Also, the impression of what music you listen to is vastly different than what you actually do. I really thought you were a death metal guy but that video is mostly sludge and stoner rock.

Aye i got bored of leeching and went to standard to do ubers as 2h, then got bored again lol

Yea the damage is high but the gear is mirrored too, kind of crappy when you compare it to other mirrored gear chars.

I had no issue with phys damage cause i was on immortall call literally all of the time hahahaha
Yea, ele damage and vaals are dangereous as fuck for pure melee, motherfuckers can freeze and melt you down in 3 hits, and you have no decent max rez against ele damage.

I did uber before on a CoC dagger witch, it took like 3 times less time than this and it was my first run sigh

Give it a go mate, its really weak going 2h compared to... any other build really, you can do better damage and survive better with many other builds for the same amount of currency you spend on a 2h char.

Well i do like death metal, but the stuff in the video is what i listen to most of the time at home

I think a buff to 2-handers should actually come from a defensive side.
block ("parry") for 2-handed swords and staves.
life and/or resists for maces. maybe evasion for axes?
something that just translates to "2-handed melee is a badass fearless warrior, NOT a glass cannon".

but yeah, you can't really guarantee someone using a 2h, isn't in fact "cheating" with Spectral Throw, therefore being both Ranged AND Tanky.

"

VictorDoom wrote:

Aye i got bored of leeching and went to standard to do ubers as 2h, then got bored again lol

Yea the damage is high but the gear is mirrored too, kind of crappy when you compare it to other mirrored gear chars.

I had no issue with phys damage cause i was on immortall call literally all of the time hahahaha
Yea, ele damage and vaals are dangereous as fuck for pure melee, motherfuckers can freeze and melt you down in 3 hits, and you have no decent max rez against ele damage.

I did uber before on a CoC dagger witch, it took like 3 times less time than this and it was my first run sigh

Give it a go mate, its really weak going 2h compared to... any other build really, you can do better damage and survive better with many other builds for the same amount of currency you spend on a 2h char.

Well i do like death metal, but the stuff in the video is what i listen to most of the time at home

What I'm pointing out is the damage isn't really a problem. I mean even without mirrored gear you could complete the run from a DPS standpoint. I just think the thing that really holds back 2h is the lack of shield because of +max res potential. The reason uber wasn't an issue for me was I had 108 fire res, 99% cold and 99% light, could be 100% all with a +1 max chest or using saffells instead of RotP but needed RotP for RF.

As most builds can't get all the aura effectiveness passives, especially a 2h build getting the purities where I had them is pretty difficult. I think the key to making 2h weapons better is to give them defensive options that associate with the weapons. Like getting some dodge while using 2h swords, max res when using something, spell dodge for another. Just special bonus to an already good defense.

I feel like you're challenging me now and cockiness wants to do it but my laziness doesn't want to do end cry/IC manually...so I'm in a pickle.

"

johnKeys wrote:

I think a buff to 2-handers should actually come from a defensive side.
block ("parry") for 2-handed swords and staves.
life and/or resists for maces. maybe evasion for axes?
something that just translates to "2-handed melee is a badass fearless warrior, NOT a glass cannon".

but yeah, you can't really guarantee someone using a 2h, isn't in fact "cheating" with Spectral Throw, therefore being both Ranged AND Tanky.

i'm mostly thinking from both sides, but its true that its the defensive aspect that is in extreme need of help so id rather see the defenses get buffed first and then the dps.

I dont think block/parry is any use for 2h melee since stacking it will use up so many points(no shield) that youll just not have enough life/dps to deal with other stuff, its best that block stays on shield builds and high pure damage mitigation on 2h builds, that would make the 2h char a badass warrior, not blocking shit just taking damage and keep attacking.

Dont worry about spectral throw, its really bad with 2h, youre lucky if you can get to like 20k tooltip on it.

"

Moosifer wrote:

"

VictorDoom wrote:

Aye i got bored of leeching and went to standard to do ubers as 2h, then got bored again lol

Yea the damage is high but the gear is mirrored too, kind of crappy when you compare it to other mirrored gear chars.

I had no issue with phys damage cause i was on immortall call literally all of the time hahahaha
Yea, ele damage and vaals are dangereous as fuck for pure melee, motherfuckers can freeze and melt you down in 3 hits, and you have no decent max rez against ele damage.

I did uber before on a CoC dagger witch, it took like 3 times less time than this and it was my first run sigh

Give it a go mate, its really weak going 2h compared to... any other build really, you can do better damage and survive better with many other builds for the same amount of currency you spend on a 2h char.

Well i do like death metal, but the stuff in the video is what i listen to most of the time at home

What I'm pointing out is the damage isn't really a problem. I mean even without mirrored gear you could complete the run from a DPS standpoint. I just think the thing that really holds back 2h is the lack of shield because of +max res potential. The reason uber wasn't an issue for me was I had 108 fire res, 99% cold and 99% light, could be 100% all with a +1 max chest or using saffells instead of RotP but needed RotP for RF.

As most builds can't get all the aura effectiveness passives, especially a 2h build getting the purities where I had them is pretty difficult. I think the key to making 2h weapons better is to give them defensive options that associate with the weapons. Like getting some dodge while using 2h swords, max res when using something, spell dodge for another. Just special bonus to an already good defense.

I feel like you're challenging me now and cockiness wants to do it but my laziness doesn't want to do end cry/IC manually...so I'm in a pickle.

Yea the damage isnt the reason why its so hard to do it, but it is extraordinarily low considering you get no real defenses. I mean GGG has to decide wether they want 2h to be a glasscannon that has no defenses and massive damage or a char that mitigates high damage and does mediocre dps.
Currently its mediocre/low dps and no damage mitigation...... fuck

Yup the lack max rez and lack of phys damage mitigation makes it ridiculously hard for a 2h, some epople around here suggested something better than changing weapons to have special defensive mods(since they already have special mods anyway) basically add something like a quiver but for 2h, like a pauldron/sheath or something that adds the defensive stats you want, max rez, dodge, endu charge or whatever along with normal stats like flat phys, wed, life, rez etc.

Currently theres no reason to NOT add a slot for 2h, its not like you sacrifice it so they do insane damage or something, and they really need a buff in defenses

if i was challenging you id have done it in game since i cant swear on the forums
but if you do really want to give 2h a go, endu cry self cast IC isnt necesarry, apart from bosses like 78 dominus and ubers, just CWDT level 20 is enough for normal mapping.

What was your max res for all 3 w/ flasks up? You have me considering this now.