Snapshotting

GGG just mentionned the possibility to lose the damage to ennemies when you remove the gem and keep the damage on yourself.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

There's some good feedback in your post that I'm sure some of the balance team will take into consideration, but I'd like to address this bit here and now. It's nothing to do with snapshotting specifically, so isn't part of this change, but 1.2.0 will also be changing "mine damage", "trap damage" and "totem damage" to explicitly mean damage dealt directly by a trap, totem or mine.
This means that if you place a mine that throws a trap that shoots a fireball, the fireball came from a trap and gets trap damage modifiers, but not mine damage modifiers. It came from the trap, not the mine.
Similarly, If you throw a trap or place a mine that summons a minion, and that minion uses an attack (or spell), then that attack or spell didn't come from a trap or mine and is not "trap damage" or "mine damage" so will not be affected by modifiers to either.

Just as with the snapshotting change, the balance team will also be keeping this change in mind when re-examining minions for 1.2.0.

How will poison trapster like RaizQT's build of the week s2e6 be affected by that? Will the poison cloud still get the benefit of the traps's more damage? After all it isn't the trap that releases the cloud but the arrow that gets released by the trap.

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robmafia wrote:

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Sneakypaw wrote:

You are a funny dude.

It's not about levels of power. I already told what the advantage is of this 'snapshotting' with spectres over how it is supposed to be.

Read again. If you still don't agree, read again until you can comprehend it.

this, coming from the one repeatedly replying to me asking how it's an advantage or net gain.

you NEVER backed that up, by the way.

if it's not about levels of power, why were you trying to argue about advantage/gains?! *facepalm*

Read again. We said it is a GEM net gain.

You are using one 6link item but are using 6 or more different support gems in total for your different specrtres. Which is a GEM net gain of X-5 for this particular 6link item.

Like I said. Read it, try to comprehend it.

Also, an advantage can mean many things (like needing one 6 link less) and doesn't have to be about DPS/Survivabilty. And part of your question was " HOW IS THAT AN ADVANTAGE"

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Qarl wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

edit: how is using different spectres with different support gems exploitative when they all use the same number of gems and it's the same number of available slots?!

it wasn't even snapshotting.

You are perfectly able to have two different spectres running different supports, as long as you keep the two skills (and supports) equipped.

so imagine a 5l - item (just for some "brainfuck" from me) - i wanna get 2evangelists and 1"titty bitch" - so if i wanna keep the evange with lets say:

raise spectre(1) - minion life(2) - incr. AoE(3) - added fire(4) - life leech(5)

and then ill get my 3rd specte, a titty bitch - it means it would loose the incr. AoE - right?!
because it wont benefit from the supportet spell

but when i swap the incr. AoE with, lets say LMP - my spectres loose the incr. AoE gem - right?!

so u completly take away snapshotting (normal max. 6l snapshot) and force us to choose on one different mob - OR force us to use another MANY slots (slots are already rare for summoners) to get our "flexibility" on the spectres back?!

so basically - u take away sustain - dmg - variety - and if we wanna have strong "minions" - we have to be equipped with those items, and all of those items have a quite huge drawback!

did you think about it - and what are your plans in terms of slots usage and buffs ?!

i was discussing this with my friends already and have startet a summoner on my own! - i had other characters with less "valuable" gear - who went easier faster and are also viable to run on IIQ IIR gear!

we have also testet it on high lvl maps - minions still will die - we did not use the 7-8link snapshot - just a normal 6l snapshot! - if i compared that to some other characters, summoners were not that fast - Squishy - and those items (Montre - and maybe some other u rly NEED) are mostly expensive.

summoners are truly not OP at all - Neither broken if u 6l snapshot them - But u force every summoner to be more squishy, less sustain, and force him to use quite a lot of drawbacks.

what will u "buff" to compensate that?! - maybe itemchanges?! - they will get ridicoulusly expensive then (maybe) - and only 0.1% of the players will be able o play them!

changes to the passive tree?! - its just an idear from me, but some kind of "mind over matter" - or "connectet with your minions" ?! - or "stand unite" things?! - i hope u could imagine what i mean!

its just - there are only huge drawbacks without any benefit on a class that is definetly not op at all!

hope to hear from u guys what u think about - its ok if its a huge wall at the answer or some insight!

still thx for the great game! even if i rly cant see the light at the end of this nerftunnel! :P


cya! :)


ps: just another "brainfart" from me - make zombie/spectre to 1 gem?!

[/spoiler]

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Minions generated with a set level will not increase in level when the gem enabling them levels up. If such a gem levels up while you have minions active, the change in minion level will only be reflected in newly-raised minions.

This sounds like changes to Minion Gem level are not applied to the summoned minions. Does this also work the other way around? I.e. I support my Zombie gem with empower, raise them, then swap the Empower for Minion Damage, they will receive the damage boost but still have the increased level?

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gehirnmutant wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Minions generated with a set level will not increase in level when the gem enabling them levels up. If such a gem levels up while you have minions active, the change in minion level will only be reflected in newly-raised minions.

This sounds like changes to Minion Gem level are not applied to the summoned minions. Does this also work the other way around? I.e. I support my Zombie gem with empower, raise them, then swap the Empower for Minion Damage, they will receive the damage boost but still have the increased level?

No that is exactly the kind of thing that is getting fixed.

Also, if the Gem levels, the minions also get updated when you transition into another instance.

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Xasrai wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

no one's GAINING anything.

4 gmp tentacles = 4 aoe evalgelists = 2 gmp tentacles and 2 aoe evangelists, and etc. 2 fully supported tentacles and 2 supported evangelists isn't magically MORE than 4 supported tentacles. this is so retardedly simple that i literally don't know how to possibly simplify it further.

it's simply diversifying instead of concentrating. that's it.

it's an issue because GGG is claiming to bring diversity with this change, but it seems to only heavily incentivize the opposite of diversity - uniformity.

This is simply not true. The utility gained for a summoner by being able to swap out those support gems gives them both offensive and defensive capabilities that NO OTHER BUILD has access to. Being able to summon a shield that ignores ALL ranged damage while also building multiple high powered Tentacled Miscreations was NOT INTENDED by GGG.

actually literally any build out there can take advantage of a shield that ignores all ranged damage. All it needs is a rs gem and a dead evangelist. An ele buzzsaw build or lowliffe shave build can build pretty powerful evangelist bodyguard for you with all them auras, while you still deal boatload of DPS.

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Xasrai wrote:

This is simply not true. The utility gained for a summoner by being able to swap out those support gems gives them both offensive and defensive capabilities that NO OTHER BUILD has access to.

*facepalm*

4 offensive spectres = 4 offensive spectres
4 defensive spectres = 4 defensive spectres
4 utility spectres = 4 utility spectres


get it?

2 offensive, 1 defensive, and 1 utility = 4 spectres. holy shit, 2+1+1 stillequals 4!

you act as if 4 magically becomes >4, if someone chooses to diversify them.

you're wrong. THERE'S NO NET GAIN. LEARN WHAT YOUR OWN KEYWORDS MEAN.

2 defensive and 2 offensive lacks the killing speed of 4 offensive and lacks the tankiness of 4 defensive. it's not magically better, just because you ignorantly think so.

you said it's a "net gain." and then you failed to ever support this claim, while vehemently arguing it.

beeing able to summon 1 defensiv , 2 offensiv and 1 utility spectre is by far superior to 4 defensiv or 4 offensiv zpectre. Period.

Also I wish people could distinguish between snapshot fix qq and disappointment over further lack of spectre diversity

I'm perfectly fine with snapshot fix, its been needed. I even think dynamic spectres can potentially be more powerful than static snapshot ones...

This doesn't change the fact that this change will result in reduced spectre diversity. People talking about needing generic gems set are right, and this will only narrow down the choices. People will use one generic gem set and maybe 2 difft spectres type at most