Glacial Cascade - Calling the Hivemind to think-tank it's usage

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patlefort3 wrote:

I also think it might be good with added cold/lightning/chaos. I'm not sure if it would beat gmp freezing pulse though which hit 5 times.

rough numbers using gmp on FP and conc on GC showing effectiveness of added dmg gems as well

FP: lvl 20 gem- 112 dmg avg x 5 = 560 avg x 1.54 (cast spd) = 862
added damage gems- .5 effectiveness x 5 = 250% x 1.54 (cast spd) = 385% effectiveness

for GC I will assume 3 hits, I have heard you can get 4 if the area is small and it can certainly drop to 2 as well, but since fp can hit less than 5 times as well (or do reduced damge based on dist) lets just assume 3 hits.

GC: lvl 20 gem- 260 avg x 3 = 720 x 1.18 (cast spd) = 849
added damage gems= .8 effective + 30% = 94% x 3 hits = 284% x 1.18 (cast spd) = 335% effectiveness

So FP slightly edges out GC if GS is only capable of hitting 3 times. From what I have heard though having a smaller aoe gets more hits so if you have zero increased aoe and reduced aoe from conc effect maybe you can hit 4 times consistently and overtake fp.

Course there is more to take into account like different damage types (GC has phys) and the different ways that ele resists, armor and curses will interact with said types as well as range, utility and the fact that 3 bigger hits will give longer lasting stacks than 5 weak hits and also the fact that faster casting speed (FP) will be more fun to use..... all things said and done though I would say FP wins the day unless GC can hit 4 times consistently.

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Splift wrote:

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patlefort3 wrote:

I also think it might be good with added cold/lightning/chaos. I'm not sure if it would beat gmp freezing pulse though which hit 5 times.

rough numbers using gmp on FP and conc on GC showing effectiveness of added dmg gems as well

FP: lvl 20 gem- 112 dmg avg x 5 = 560 avg x 1.54 (cast spd) = 862
added damage gems- .5 effectiveness x 5 = 250% x 1.54 (cast spd) = 385% effectiveness

GMP modifies your base damage x .5. You have already factored that into the avg damage without mentioning it.

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Splift wrote:

for GC I will assume 3 hits, I have heard you can get 4 if the area is small and it can certainly drop to 2 as well, but since fp can hit less than 5 times as well (or do reduced damge based on dist) lets just assume 3 hits.

GC: lvl 20 gem- 260 avg x 3 = 720 x 1.18 (cast spd) = 849
added damage gems= .8 effective + 30% = 94% x 3 hits = 284% x 1.18 (cast spd) = 335% effectiveness

for GC we can assume conc effect adding 69% more damage making its base 1434 damage. Since conc effect also mods the added X damage you should also include that as well: 335*1.69 = 566% damage effectiveness. If you dont include conc effect in your comparison than the results are skewed as you are subtly giving FP an extra support gem.

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Splift wrote:

So FP slightly edges out GC if GS is only capable of hitting 3 times. From what I have heard though having a smaller aoe gets more hits so if you have zero increased aoe and reduced aoe from conc effect maybe you can hit 4 times consistently and overtake fp.

Course there is more to take into account like different damage types (GC has phys) and the different ways that ele resists, armor and curses will interact with said types as well as range, utility and the fact that 3 bigger hits will give longer lasting stacks than 5 weak hits and also the fact that faster casting speed (FP) will be more fun to use..... all things said and done though I would say FP wins the day unless GC can hit 4 times consistently.

I disagree with your analysis for the reasons iv already stated.

Also i should mention that you shouldnt include cast speed into your damage effectiveness calculations without differentiating it from the 'damage effectiveness' which is currently in game. Using the same name for 2 different concepts can only lead to trouble.

Another comparision

FP GMP gives 5 shots at 50% less dmg with cast speed of 0.65

5 shots * 0.5 less dmg / 0.65 cast speed = 3.84 multiplier effect

GC at 2 hits with 80% effectiveness and 69% concentrate effect and cast speed of 0.85

2 hits * 0.8 effectiveness * 1.69 more dmg (CE) / 0.85 cast speed = 3.18 multiplier effect

GC at 3 hits

2 hits * 0.8 effectiveness * 1.69 more dmg / 0.85 cast speed = 4.77 multiplier effect

GC average dmg (undoing the damage effectiveness)* is 381.25/s for 1 hit

FP average dmg is 350/s for 1 hit


*Why undo the damage effectivness?, because it is factored in to the multiplier effect comparision.

Summary
GC and FP does similar dmg per second for 1 raw hit

FP has more multiplier effect if GC only hits twice and FP 5 times
GC has more multiplier effect if it hits three times

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Splift wrote:

I never did extensive testing, but based on the few casts I did plus this thread I can say I don't like it.

The range is absolute shit. To increase the range you get increased aoe that in turn makes the skill hit less times per hit destroying your damage (concentrating the attack into a smaller area makes more hits on the same mob). I never bothered to check the range with conc effect, but it is safe to say that if the range with no inc aoe is shit then it will be lower than shit with conc effect.

I could see this skill doing amazing damage(or not, dont know havent tested) with conc effect, tons of crit, power charges and spell damage but at the end of the day the range would be complete bs. Hunting down things that run like gulls would be a bitch and you would be basically taking things on in melee range.

Only way I could see this being viable at all is if it does absolutely beastly damage and even then due to its range people would probably kill circles around you in parties.

Increasing AoE actually makes the hits per enemy normalize towards 2. Getting 3 pretty much requires Conc Effect or Knockback (former is clearly superior), while getting 4 requires that, very large enemies, and probably also a bit of luck.

I should also mention that 2 hits with this is about equal to getting 3 point-blank hits with LMP freezing pulse. That's why I said the area where this skill is really going to shine is going to be is going to be with +AoE in narrow, enclosed areas where it clears up mobs in hallways quite effectively. It's the first linear AoE skill in the game, really, and it's not bad in it's niche.

Guys, just look at the wiki jesus.. making this thread way to complicated

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Glacial_Cascade

I am surprised no one considered glacial cascade, conc effect, added cold, added fire, 20% cold to fire, and faster casting + hatred aura.

I am currently leveling the listed gems I don't already have to lvl 17 for proof of concept testing :)

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Fluffy_Puppies wrote:

I am surprised no one considered glacial cascade, conc effect, added cold, added fire, 20% cold to fire, and faster casting + hatred aura.

I am currently leveling the listed gems I don't already have to lvl 17 for proof of concept testing :)

Added fire? for 39 damage?
Cold to fire?

Added cold/lightning both grant vastly improved damage and better status ailments.

Hatred wouldnt hurt, but depending on your gear and build you might be better off with a different aura or using the points elsewhere.

Faster casting is of course always excellent for spells though.

This isnt to say such a build 'wouldnt work'. You could make a build that just uses standard attacks rather than use skills and make it work. But should anyone do something obviously inferior just because they can?

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I am surprised no one considered glacial cascade, conc effect, added cold, added fire, 20% cold to fire, and faster casting + hatred aura.

I am currently leveling the listed gems I don't already have to lvl 17 for proof of concept testing :)

I have, but no prolif :'(.

Don't see why you would wanna burn instead of freeze when there ain't no prolif.

Also given the fact it "cascades" on enemy's i think "added lightning damage" applying shockstacks during the cascade might yield better results when crit oriented.

GC + Critdmg + Critchance + Added Lightning + Voll's Protector ledge speedfarming.

If you crit you oneshot a group, no need for penetration because the physical component hits quite hard as well.

As 5link with a possible conc effect it should easily deal enough damage to do higher maps

I've been giving this skill a lot of thought. Unfortunately I do not have a caster character available to test it, and I just can't think of a build to make it work in my head.

I do think we (reading other people's suggestions) are adhering too much to the elemental aspect. We might be able to do more if we focus on the physical damage. Not that we should ignore the cold damage, but I think it's the physical damage that makes it interesting and gives it potential to be used in combination with physical damage weapons (hybrid build).

Secondly the notion that it has a relatively high crit chance might be keeping us focussed to much on crit applications. It might be perfectly suited for a Resolute Technique build, for example in combination with Wands:

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgAAAnEEBwSzBOQIZxBpFE0XLxdUGDwYkRo4HwIigSj6KU8tHzCXMYkxnjLRNZI2xTbpOYo62D1fQYdDY0VHRZ1G10qMTLNN2E3jUlNV1leHWPVZvFnzXcZgbWTnZp5tGXFNcql10HqqfNl9U4CkgK6CHoKbgseDOIjxjHaOPJBVkzqXlZrPmuCdgJ3EnqGiAKIEplenCKeErKqvm7UEtzG3PriTvSfAGsHzxSjYJNsL3QXd8-NW42rqGOvu7DjvfPZb9zL46_no-tL67_4K_o__sA==


With:

LMB: Power Siphon + GMP + Curse on Hit + Frostbite + Item Rarity
RMB: GC + Faster Casting + Life Leech + Elemental Proliferation

Use LMB to curse and to cull, and use RMB when they get close.

It's just another wild idea, and I definitely don't suggest anyone play this, as is, but it might open up a few new perspectives. I brain stormed a few other GC trees too, but they seemed a lot less solid to me:

I actually quite like the "perfect" 120 points variant, but I doubt it scales well, as you start removing points to bring the tree to a realistic level.

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Hypertasty wrote:

The actual margin for hitting mobs nearby is incredibly minimal.

Elemental Proliferation?

It won't help with the damage, but it will keep them frozen in place up to far beyond the range of the spell.