Unique Item List - 300 of 419

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Xapti wrote:

Taryn's shiver would be better than a +3 staff because the 20% more cold damage to frozen targets is just excellent, and the targets will be frozen for the majority of all casts. Not to mention it's probably nearly impossible to get stats (total damage and cast speed) around the level of a Taryn's on a +3 rare staff.

A +3 staff however would greatly benefit from Empower (a level 2 Empower on a +3 staff means level 25 cold snap, yields around 41% more base damage than a level 21 cold snap in a Shiver). Base damage is good, because it makes increased damage more valuable. Shiver deals more damage by its self, but the +3 staff scales better with higher levels of increased damage. At around 100% increased damage, the two are equal (21 cs is 367 damage, * 3 is 1120; 25 cs is 520 damage, * 2 is 1040). Anything above 100% increased damage and the +3 staff wins out. Sure you're spending another gem slot for Empower, but if your goal is to raise the damage as high as possible (thus improving your ability to freeze enemies), you're not exactly spoiled for choice when it comes to supports that improve damage.

I guess it all depends on how feasible it is to freeze, say, resistant rares or bosses, but I would think the goal is to bring the damage-per-cast as high as possible so you seldom run into enemies that you can't freeze.

Taryn's Shiver provides effectively a 20% increase to base damage on frozen targets; considering that the average hit would be applied to a frozen target, I'd say it'd be equivalent to maybe a 15% DPS boost or possibly even more (closer to 19% if proliferation was being used). Not only that but it's increased damage across the board, not just Cold Snap damage, and not just cold damage, and not just your own damage but that of the entire party.

In addition, increased base damage has reduced effectiveness when added cold damage is used, so that needs to be factored in as well. With the added cold damage gem is factored in, +2 spell levels offers around 14.5% more damage, which isn't anything more than what the Taryn's gets from frozen targets; Sure it helps empower a bit, but empower is already a weak support.

I'd say a +3 staff would need really sweet stats for it to be comparable to a Taryn's for a build that freezes so much (53-60% not counting crits)

The frozen damage boost from Taryn's Shiver is increased, not more, which means the more increased damage you have the less effective it is. Good catch with the party play capability though.

Didn't think about the added cold damage messing with the base damage, so let's just math it out.

21 cold snap: 367
21 added cold: no info on the wiki, let's just say 9% more damage (same progression as Cold Snap). Making it 120
So that makes a base damage of:
487.

25 cold snap: 520
23 added cold: 142
Base damage of:
662.

In order for them to be equal, you would need around 200% increased damage:
487 * 4 = 1948
662 * 3 = 1986

Okay, so taking added cold damage into consideration, Shiver is actually pretty close to a +3 staff with no increased damage mods. You would need a really high increased damage rating from other gear slots and passives in order to compensate for the 100% increased damage the Shiver can offer, probably too high to be feasible using non-staff gear slots.

So I guess my verdict is: Use a +3 staff if you can craft anything close to +80 increased damage on it (gonna be eternal + exalts because spelldamage and gem levels are all prefixes), otherwise a Shiver will give equal if not more damage for much less investment.

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gilrad wrote:

The frozen damage boost from Taryn's Shiver is increased, not more, which means the more increased damage you have the less effective it is.

Not true.

It is increased, but it stacks additively with other "enemies take more damage" effects. I'm not 100% sure on how its implemented, but it may stack additively with shock.

It definitely does not stack additively with your "do increased damage" effects.

Due to this, it's pretty safe to treat it as a multiplier.

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pneuma wrote:

It is increased, but it stacks additively with other "enemies take more damage" effects. I'm not 100% sure on how its implemented, but it may stack additively with shock.

It definitely does not stack additively with your "do increased damage" effects.

Due to this, it's pretty safe to treat it as a multiplier.

As far as I know, shock bonus is always separate, it might as well say 'enemies take more damage'. Tarin bonus will stack with other 'enemies take % increased damage' mods, however.

'Increased' mods always stack additively within a damage calculation stage, so quality and % damage enhancement stack additively on a weapon but it multiplies with increases that apply on you, and multiply once again with increases that apply on damage taken by monster.

There is an interesting exception to this. If you are affected by an aura cast by a pleyer that has 'increased aura effect' and you have inner force, those bonuses will add together instead of multiply even though their sources are different and they apply to different entities.

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Daniel_GGG wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

I'm not 100% sure on how its implemented, but it may stack additively with shock.

Yep.

Strange. Was that fixed around the time of blood dance change or was it always like that.

Thanks, I wonder where did I see that info about shock not stacking with other damage taken increases.

Aversion to floating damage numbers is all well and good but combat log would be really helpful

Just to clear things up, I believe shock stacks additively with "increased damage taken" mods on gear but is multiplicative when interacting with "increased damage dealt" mods (e.g. The Taming)