Bow skills damage conversion

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Skellymancer#5263 wrote:

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SoulOfReapeR#4323 wrote:

You're just trolling. This kind of thing should be banned on this forum.

I do not agree with you.
I explained everything to you, to the best of my ability.

1 damage is 1 damage. It can be cold, it can be fire, it can be lightning.
IT is 1 damage. The process of converting it is not "loss".

How you look at it - that is not important.

The fact is that it 1 damage. 1 = 1.
End of story. Find a way to deal with it.

Brother, I understand you. So, I want to make a pure elemental bow build. What is your advice? Is there a way? I don't want physical damage at all. The name of the skill is "ICE SHOT" but there is some physical damage in it. I don't want that. That's our problem. This is hindering us. Or even if it doesn't hinder us, it's a redundancy, complexity.

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SoulOfReapeR#4323 wrote:

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Skellymancer#5263 wrote:

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SoulOfReapeR#4323 wrote:

You're just trolling. This kind of thing should be banned on this forum.

I do not agree with you.
I explained everything to you, to the best of my ability.

1 damage is 1 damage. It can be cold, it can be fire, it can be lightning.
IT is 1 damage. The process of converting it is not "loss".

How you look at it - that is not important.

The fact is that it 1 damage. 1 = 1.
End of story. Find a way to deal with it.

Brother, I understand you. So, I want to make a pure elemental bow build. What is your advice? Is there a way? I don't want physical damage at all. The name of the skill is "ICE SHOT" but there is some physical damage in it. I don't want that. That's our problem. This is hindering us. Or even if it doesn't hinder us, it's a redundancy, complexity.

Read wolfy's answer.

He is way more patient than I am.

I could be wrong, and probably am, but I thought you had to do some physical damage (even if just a bit) in order to shatter frozen enemies?

Maybe I mis-understood but that was always what I thought, but now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure I have used 100% conversion ice skills and still shattered (but not totally sure about that).

You might be able to shatter without physical damage, although that is kinda strange lol. I freeze you SO bad you just shatter lol.

Anyway even if you don't need it for that (and you still might....not gonna test it).....like I said, having phys damage is just a bonus. It's WAY easier to boost, and those boosts are in addition to elemental damage, so just be happy!!!

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wolfy42#4073 wrote:

First off physical damage is very useful for many elemental abilities. For instance, you need it to break up frozen enemies to use herald of ice as an example.

That is not how shatter works. Shatter is when you kill a frozen enemy. Physical damage does not help you freeze. So physical damage, at the cost of potential more cold damage, is therefor detrimental for Herald of Ice.

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wolfy42#4073 wrote:

Also even if it's only a portion of the damage, physical damage causes stun build up, affects poison and bleed etc.

Stun build up, poison and bleed are all based on the physical and/or chaos damage dealt. Same effect as with freeze. The more you convert, the lower the effect will be. In both situations, if you aim for mixed damage you will always do less damage than someone who focuses on one.

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wolfy42#4073 wrote:

Also conversion allow you to both increase damage with physical % and direct physical increases to your bow AND elemental increases. Why is the physical important if you are going mostly elemental?

Are you suggesting that increase is applied before conversion? So that increased physical damage would increase the portion that is converted to an element?

If so, then you are mistaken. This is how it works in PoE 1. But in PoE 2 it has been changed so that conversion is the first step. Every increase only effects the already converted part. If you have 100 physical base damage, 50% converted to lightning and 100% increased physical damage. Your resulting damage is 100 physical + 50 lightning.

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wolfy42#4073 wrote:

That being said, in general, you want a bow with as much base physical damage as you can get, a HUGE amount of physical % increase (especially if you are a ranger since there are so few physical/elemental/attack/two handed etc nodes by ranger).

This does not change the fact that a full conversion gives you more options to scale the damage. And that a full conversion, mathematically, will do more damage than physical + elemental mixed.

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wolfy42#4073 wrote:

If you have 300 physical damage on your bow, it would get boosted by everything, and twice if you have elemental or cold damage boosts.

So 300 physical damage with 200% physical increase makes that 900 physical damage (that is added together with projectile etc), then it's converted to cold damage by your bow skill (I think salvo is 100% conversion), so 900 cold damage that is now boosted by your elemental and cold damage bonuses as well.

No. That is not how conversion works in PoE 2. Conversion is done first.

Edit:
Regarding physical increases. Just to be sure, since I am not certain how you meant it. Here we have to differentiate between local and global modifiers. Local modifiers on the weapon are calculated first and effect the base damage of the weapon, used for the skill. Global increases apply after conversion. So for your example with a 300 damage bow with 200% increased physical damage. I assumed that the local modifiers have already been taken into account by stating the bow has 300 damage. And that the 200% increased physical damage was from global modifiers.

There is no way conversion is done first at least off your base weapon damage and % damage from nodes in your tree. The difference would be too great. I go with mostly pure physical and get a TON of physical/attack etc nodes in the tree, and my converted ice shot etc isn't like 1/3rd of my physical damage.

Something has to be working on the physical % increases for my damage to be so high, or maybe it's just broken and not working right.

But it's easy to see the huge damage boost you get from physical % increases over by the warrior side of the tree. The physical % increases boost my ice shot etc (you can see it when you hover over and hit alt or shift I forget in the tree).

You get a ton of % physical on your bow as well, along with what is in the tree and that DOES seem to boost the elemental damage you do with ice shot/lightning shot etc.

So not sure if it's not working right or what, but yeah, everything I have seen shows that physical is boosted first, then converted and then the elemental is boosted after that.

Again, could be wrong but yeah, that is how it appears in the game. Then again I have mostly gone for very few elemental nodes so I wasn't able to compare that well with physical nodes. Perhaps it's JUST the physical % of damage that is increasing when I look at it in the tree.

Because I go with high physical bows, that is significant, so it does make it hard to tell.

Anyway I have found high physical bows to work VERY well, especially if you can hit all the nodes in the warrior section. Maybe you can make elemental work as well shrug, but I'm happy with my setup. I get all the elemental damage I want AND very high physical for stun/bleed/poison/armor break etc.

Best of all worlds.

Can play however you want, but to me, that is just the perfect setup.

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wolfy42#4073 wrote:

There is no way conversion is done first at least off your base weapon damage and % damage from nodes in your tree.

From the wiki https://www.poe2wiki.net/wiki/Conversion:

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Damage conversion is calculated after combining any sources of additional damage to base damage, but before any damage modifiers (e.g. increased or more damage).

Edit:
Or the post from Vipermagi#0984 in https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3610069

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Vipermagi#0984 wrote:

(in other words: Conversion happens before Damage modifiers, they are separate steps)

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wolfy42#4073 wrote:

There is no way conversion is done first at least off your base weapon damage and % damage from nodes in your tree.

the conversion does actually happen first now.



this is fairly universal too as far as i know, if you have eldritch battery for example that converts energy shield to mana, if you take % increased energy shield nodes they will do nothing for you, they wont increase the energy shield that is then being converted to mana.

if you take iron reflexes which converts evasion to armour and you have a ton fo evasion gear on any increased evasion nodes you take will not work. the conversion happens before increases are applied, you could only scale the resulting armour by scaling armour.



if this is all correct it does make sense, it stops conversions being strictly better because they have more ways to scale, and it allows them to balance how much scaling is on offer because you cant do things that suddenly allow you to use multiple sources.








im rly not sure about this whole partial conversion thing now with skills.

afaik the skill conversion is now seperate to other conversions too? so say a skill converts 80% of phys damage to lightning, you cant then go and get an item that converts 20% of phys to lightning for 100% conversion? is that correct?

if you do that what will happen is it will convert 20% of the remaining physical portion? so even if you have 80% convert on your skill, to convert the remaining 20% you will need to find 100% conversion from elsewhere?


again i can kind of understand why it would make sense to do it that way if its the case but im not sure i understand why skills do a % conversion any more? why not just convert the entire of the phys to the element? it just seems really unnecessary at this point to leave a portion physical.



i think u can get the full conversion with heralds etc right? ive not played an attack build yet so i havent had to really deal with all this.

I didn't understand something, I want to ask for clarification.
Bow's local prefix is ​​"#% increased Physical Damage".
Is it included in Conversion?

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SoulOfReapeR#4323 wrote:

I didn't understand something, I want to ask for clarification.
Bow's local prefix is ​​"#% increased Physical Damage".
Is it included in Conversion?

Increased Physical Damage on the bow is local damage. This effects the damage of the bow directly and is done before anything else. You can see this by the damage number of the bow increasing if you roll this affix on a normal physical damage bow. So you do not actually need to calculate it yourself. It is already displayed on the bow.

Global increased physical damage, as like from the passive tree or other items is applied after conversion.

But Increased Elemental Damage on the bow would be global though.

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SoulOfReapeR#4323 wrote:

I didn't understand something, I want to ask for clarification.
Bow's local prefix is ​​"#% increased Physical Damage".
Is it included in Conversion?

yes, local mods work on your raw/base/flat weapon dmg which then is used for all calcs.