Make T17's Difficult Again

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Toforto wrote:

And yes, they should be doable by most players, otherwise what's the point in even making content that only the 0.1% can interact with?

Because this is precisely for whom they were designed? What kind of question is that? Its also why UBER bosses exist on top of the regular bosses. It is aspirational content designed to attract players who actually want to continue improving and progressing. You seem to have just simply arbitrarily drawn a line in the sand for yourself and refuse to see the other side of the rainbow. Why is delve endless? Why did they add 10 more waves to Sim? Why are there 4 labs? Why are there 17 tiers of maps in the first place? Why are scarabs a thing? Why are maps able to be run white, magic, rare, and corrupted? Why can't you typically wear the gear you earn in Act 1 for the rest of the game? Why do monsters get progressively stronger throughout the game?

Anything added that is higher difficulty than current top difficulty content is specifically being added to challenge the best of the best players and the best of the best builds. This of course means its going to get more and more restrictive as you progress. "Guaranteed" progress is the domain of idle games, which simply require you to keep your game running for a certain amount of time and eventually you will reach the next higher difficulty. This game, and the genre as a whole, simply demands a more active and thoughtful player to reach higher difficulties and rewards.

Why are greater rifts in D3 endless? Why do endgame dungeons in other rpgs scale endlessly upwards in difficulty?

What if PoE endgame stopped at monster level 75 yellow tier maps? What if it never got more difficult than t1 maps? How long would YOU continue to play?

It's hard to say where difficulty should be in a game like poe, but tedium certainly is a bad balance point.

Sitting in hideout trading or rolling t17s is perhaps the most boring thing for me. If they truly want a hellmap, make the mods randomize every 5 seconds.

I think it projects unrealistic expectations of a lot of skills and items. A lot of mods basically turn off certain things, like no aoe or auras.

T17 at this point is just more fuel for clickbait.

Just move the map device slot unlock off of them and call it a day.

They added a bisection scarab if you cant handle the mods on t17s. Dont need to move the slot off them.

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roundishcap wrote:

It's hard to say where difficulty should be in a game like poe, but tedium certainly is a bad balance point.

Sitting in hideout trading or rolling t17s is perhaps the most boring thing for me. If they truly want a hellmap, make the mods randomize every 5 seconds.

I think it projects unrealistic expectations of a lot of skills and items. A lot of mods basically turn off certain things, like no aoe or auras.

T17 at this point is just more fuel for clickbait.

Just move the map device slot unlock off of them and call it a day.

Well, think about the natural progression of difficulty in a game like this:

We build a character, improve the offenses and defenses as much as we can. We get better at positioning and reading patterns. That is our job. It is how we can control the level of our character's power.

Monsters get progressively harder with increased life and damage. Additionally "difficulty" scales by either: adding more damage/life to monsters, adding special effects to maps, or reducing player defenses/offenses.

Sure, they could ONLY scale monster damage and hp infinitely higher, but this is not only inefficient, its also boring and one-note. Challenging a player by reducing their stats is a natural difficulty modifier. And once that becomes negligible to sufficient power creep? Turn OFF the stats completely. Some of these mods are insurmountable for specific builds, sure...but thats why the game allows you to reroll these mods. Customizable difficulty increases to suit your build.

Players tackle ALL of the t17 mods, there are none that are legitimately impossible across the board. Some are more punishing to certain builds, but this is true at ALL levels of difficulty. A player that hasn't maxed out their fire resist is going to have trouble with "Monsters gain x% of physical damage as added fire" and -resist mods at ALL levels. But that allows for interesting design and meaningful choices in content


There are so many complaints about map mods and t17 mods and rare monster mods, and all sorts of other things. But I have NEVER ONCE heard anyone offer a better suggestion for difficulty scaling, except for "just make the monster bigger and stronger". That is the least creative design choice.

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Players tackle ALL of the t17 mods, there are none that are legitimately impossible across the board.

"Players take a % of the damage taken by their totems"
"Reduced aura effect aka disable all your auras"
"Reflect"(sadly not every build has lvl5 awakened ele damage with attacks to ignore this mechanic)
"monsters cannot be taunted and cannot be slowed below base value"

Do you know just how many builds get bricked completely by these mods alone? There are a lot of mods that just say "you don't get to play the game" so you have to sit there in your hideout spamming chaos orbs and deleting your currency, that is not fun game design. And if you use bisection scarab then you just get 0 rewards from the map so that also sucks. There is no outgearing mods that literally disable your build. There is no skill to be used here, they cannot be overcome. These map mods exist solely to waste your chaos orbs, and that's just bad design.

And I didn't even mention any of the horrible valdo map mods that don't even belong in t17s at all and should just be deleted.

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Toforto wrote:

...

Examples of very different builds that can run all map mods in every combination with 5x risk scarab and 80%mod effect:

1. MS Zenith jugg (Onemanaleft): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al4X1mZpKjo
2. BV explode jugg(ZeeBoub): https://pobb.in/9e5l-dp_ujai
3. Perma vaal BV pathfinder (Bazuka Tank): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qebsI8CTU0
4. PS locus mines trickster (i'll just link my current PoB): https://pobb.in/e9s4qpDMD0gP

There are plenty more builds I could list like traps and more vaal skill shenanigens but T17s aren't the only viable content. There's plenty of stuff in the game that is equally or even more rewarding (not including crafting, gambling, services or flipping), making this about as optional as it gets.

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There are plenty more builds I could list like traps and more vaal skill shenanigens but T17s aren't the only viable content. There's plenty of stuff in the game that is equally or even more rewarding (not including crafting, gambling, services or flipping), making this about as optional as it gets.

Just one look at one of the pob's already tells me how insanely expensive these builds are. Weird jewels all over the skill tree, specific Megalomaniac jewel, lvl100 pob which already sucks, nobody wants to grind to 100 just to copy a build. Perfect double-corrupt implicits on jewels. Forbidden Flesh and Forbidden Flame. Legion jewel because those are always so fun to look for and buy. Why is it ok for these kinds of min-maxed builds to be the only ones capable of farming t17s? Wayyy too much time and effort required to copy these builds just to do these badly balanced maps. I don't wanna farm for weeks just to make a 2nd char that can do these maps, they should be doable by any leaguestarter that you invest like 20 divines max into. And if you wanna add delirium orbs and exiles and so on then that's your choice.

I'd never get all the gear nor lvl100 for any of these guides because I'd fall asleep and quit the league before that lol

This is exactly the problem with these maps, if you need these kinds of perfect-gear builds to run them smoothly then that's just bad balancing.

Also forgot to mention the 3-passive and 1 small passive that adds nothing perfect Voices jewel, that thing probably costs multiple mirrors now lol

This discussion is tiresome. You do not need to 100% copy the build, you can just work backwards and remove the most expensive thing and replace them with much cheaper alternatives until it fits your budget, chances are if you know the game well enough you will still have a perfectly functional build.

https://pobb.in/aCuywZRlX2uv

For example this is what i threw together in SSF in like 2 weekends (replaced my mirror tier amulet with a much cheaper alternative), you can probably get this running in sc trade for like 50 div, less if you selfcraft. This build can easily do full T17s.

Did you miss the point of adding 5 risk scarabs to push it to Valdo levels of difficulty entirely? I suppose it's to be expected at this point.

You can literally throw the PS trickster budget version into T17s at 50d to get your completion or do something like cheap ambush or divinity. People did it on day 2 of this league.

Unfortunately there is no reasoning with this poster, as they think:


So they believe there are 3 builds, all being 10 mirrors or more, that do 500k dps, that people are forced to play, that only 0.000000001% can do for good rewards from t17s.

But they also believe they are now 5 mirrors instead of 10.

And they also think you have to have perfect gear builds to run them smoothly.


This is why GGG just needs to disable carry services, "area can only have one person" modifier on all end game, and pinnacle content. Players like the one above have this distorted view on content they should beable to run.

Hopefully this feature comes to POE2, so we dont run into issues like this.