Make T17's Difficult Again

Oh really? Isn't the entire game about overcoming its challenges? What makes you think skill shouldn't be a factor in the literal pinnacle content of a 10 year hardcore ARPG experience?

This conversation is a disaster.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

Oh really? Isn't the entire game about overcoming its challenges? What makes you think skill shouldn't be a factor in the literal pinnacle content of a 10 year hardcore ARPG experience?

This conversation is a disaster.

This isn't a hardcore arpg? The game is literally designed and balanced around sc trade mainly. The majority of the playerbase plays in that mode. They only accidentally add quality of life for ssf sometimes. And hardcore is just logout macro simulator, as its always been.

My point is these maps are overtuned and not "challenging". Just because something is insanely hard doesn't make it good, in any game. It's so much of a struggle to do these maps even with scarab of stability, I've still lost all portals 2 times while using that one. That's enough proof that these maps need some serious nerfs. And ofc all the other people who agree about the ridiculous design of t17s.

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Toforto wrote:

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ArtCrusade wrote:

Oh really? Isn't the entire game about overcoming its challenges? What makes you think skill shouldn't be a factor in the literal pinnacle content of a 10 year hardcore ARPG experience?

This conversation is a disaster.

This isn't a hardcore arpg? The game is literally designed and balanced around sc trade mainly. The majority of the playerbase plays in that mode. They only accidentally add quality of life for ssf sometimes. And hardcore is just logout macro simulator, as its always been.

My point is these maps are overtuned and not "challenging". Just because something is insanely hard doesn't make it good, in any game. It's so much of a struggle to do these maps even with scarab of stability, I've still lost all portals 2 times while using that one. That's enough proof that these maps need some serious nerfs. And ofc all the other people who agree about the ridiculous design of t17s.

What?

You not being able to clear T17 isn't an indication of them being a problem, what kind of logic is that?

And I can even prove to you that it makes no sense: let's say that I can't beat Act 10 kitava in under 50 deaths because I refuse to move out of the way of his arm-drag attack. Would you then say this is PROOF that the boss is overtuned and that attack should be nerfed?

The entire game is about finding the right combination of skill+build to overcome challenges. The more skill you have, the worse your build can be. The more well geared you have, the sloppier your mechanical skill can be. If you find a challenge you cannot currently overcome, it means you need to increase one or both of those things until you can.

Dude, your build has no defences, ofc you will sometimes rip maps. Its a side effect you have to accept when building glass cannons.

Ask any person that used to play MF bows, occasionally everyone bricked juiced T16s if they died in a bad spot and couldn‘t get back to snowballing, does this mean that T16s need to be nerfed? If you dont want to brick maps build defences in your build.

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What?

You not being able to clear T17 isn't an indication of them being a problem, what kind of logic is that?

And I can even prove to you that it makes no sense: let's say that I can't beat Act 10 kitava in under 50 deaths because I refuse to move out of the way of his arm-drag attack. Would you then say this is PROOF that the boss is overtuned and that attack should be nerfed?

The entire game is about finding the right combination of skill+build to overcome challenges. The more skill you have, the worse your build can be. The more well geared you have, the sloppier your mechanical skill can be. If you find a challenge you cannot currently overcome, it means you need to increase one or both of those things until you can.

Except you can't just dodge or outmaneuver bad t17 map mods. They're just bad and in the game and that's it. There is no skill involved in that, what kind of counterplay does having maven interfere with players have when she spams heal every 2 seconds? I guess I need 1 billion dps or something? What kind of skill do I need to counterplay "deal no damage every x seconds"? There is nothing that I can do about that mod except delete more chaos orbs. It makes no sense. I'm not talking about game mechanics, or enemy abilities here. I'm talking about the map mods, the insane difficulty they add onto the base monsters, and how bosses can become impossible and insta-kill you when you enter the arena because of 1 map mod. That isn't a fun experience. And the monster types themselves in t17s are designed to either be annoying,rippy or waste your time. Or a combo of all 3. Like those things that burrow underground but still somehow have a hitbox where they will emerge, so you can't loot items near that hitbox and have to sit there and wait lol, that's just boring. Or the insane lightning balls from the shaper robots that hit like 50 times a second and go back and forth. The insta-spikes from offscreen Brutus mobs. The crazy water orb from off-screen when those water orb-type packs are in the map. Must I go on? Every single enemy is designed to just annoy you, there is absolutely 0 skill involved here. Just copy paste your 5 mirror build from poe ninja and explode the screen, ignoring all the mechanics. That doesn't change the fact that these maps suck to run for the average player.

This is funny because it is a perfect example of what I said in another thread earlier today:

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The reason why they complain about a thing is equally as important. A lot of people complain about taxes, doesn't mean taxes are bad, or should be removed. People can complain about things because interested parties feed them information (true or not) to rile them up. Doesn't make the cause just. A lot of people even today believe the Earth is flat. Doesn't mean they even have a point to begin with.

An amount of people agreeing on a position doesn't mean you cannot scrutinize them, or their arguments. It's intellectually dishonest to do so

Your personal experience with T17s is playing a glasscannon build and expecting it to breeze through. If you were better at the game maybe you could, or maybe you just need to improve your character's defences if you want to run T17s with it.

Whatever it is, refusing to learn doesn't make your wrong right, and so far your arguments always boil down to "it's bad because it's bad" or "they're overtuned" without ever providing anything substantive.

Like duh, of course T17 mobs deal "too much damage" when you have no defence. You choosing to play like that doesn't equate to T17s being imbalanced. It just means the game isn't balanced around your particular build choices.

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Every single enemy is designed to annoy you

No, they're designed to kill you. They're enemies. That's what they do.

Are they supposed to be NPC loot pinatas? Boring.

Everyone should play what makes them happy, you don't have to play a meta build. But there is a reason meta builds are meta... because they are powerful and do well in the current content. If you aren't happy with your off-meta build, then why are you playing it?

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Piousqd wrote:

Everyone should play what makes them happy, you don't have to play a meta build. But there is a reason meta builds are meta... because they are powerful and do well in the current content. If you aren't happy with your off-meta build, then why are you playing it?

I never said I'm not happy with my build. It's great for spamming t16s and running sanctum or normal endgame bosses, and even most uber bosses. All I'm saying is that t17s are insanely overtuned, and annoying to run.

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Toforto wrote:

That doesn't change the fact that these maps suck to run for the average player.

I've got a real, genuine question for you, and I want you to think about your answer for a couple minutes before replying:

Should average players be able to clear T17 maps?

Because if you think about this for a few minutes and decide that the answer is "yes," we are so fundamentally opposed in our viewpoints of what role pinnacle content should play in a game like this that there is no point in even attempting to discuss it any more. We are never going to agree.