I'm sick of zoom meta. (Speed creep created bad combat and game balance)

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Kaboinglefop wrote:

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DigitalDecaf wrote:

Way more people want to blast and zoom than people who want a slow arpg, there are plenty of slow games to play if thats what you want, sorry

yeah, and PoE2 is one of them thankfully

At the start sure, but so was PoE when it started, give it time

fully aware... been here for quite a while if you check my profile.

But PoE devolved into this mess due to demand. PoE1 will fill that demand, PoE2 can fill the new demand.

I have faith.. otherwise I guess it was a good run and I'll stick to d2.

For sure, and I'm not being trolly, it's a genuine discussion point, but the bottom line is time and time again we've seen gamers complain about how new games *Feel* to play, not referring to how combat with individual packs of monsters is, but the over all feel/responsiveness that your mouse clicks and keystrokes give you, and when games are slower its just doesn't feel good, to a lot of people at least, even as in act 1 when you are just physically slow. It was a big complaint in D4 and in Last epoch. Arpger's don't want to feel like they are underwater, and if poe2 is too slow they will get the same complaint about general feel of gameplay and be forced to adapt. It's just not the demographic that arpgs are meant to fill, but there are plenty of games that are meant to be like that.

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Kaboinglefop wrote:

But PoE devolved into this mess due to demand. PoE1 will fill that demand, PoE2 can fill the new demand.

No league has had players directly demand speed, Zoom meta wasn't created by player demand its simply the end of the path the developers chose with the changes they made.

The reason i'm saying this is PoE2 will go in the same direction if they make the same decisions. Power creep is a dangerous tool and its very challenging to get it right, even more so to get it right every 3/4 months.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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Kaboinglefop wrote:

But PoE devolved into this mess due to demand. PoE1 will fill that demand, PoE2 can fill the new demand.

No league has had players directly demand speed, Zoom meta wasn't created by player demand its simply the end of the path the developers chose with the changes they made.

The reason i'm saying this is PoE2 will go in the same direction if they make the same decisions. Power creep is a dangerous tool and its very challenging to get it right, even more so to get it right every 3/4 months.

Indeed, POE isn't fast because players demanded it. POE is fast because GGG scoped to allow it, and incentivized and rewarded it more than any other way to play.

Combine out of bounds DPS and AOE + Unlimited speed + Movement skill spam + automation = lack of bounding which guranteed clear speed meta.

Set your win condition to earning orbs from millions of kills = incentive

Its actually very simple why POE's clear speed meta evolved.

GGG made it possible and they made it the correct way to win the game. they made it the only deterministic way to play as well (earn orbs and buy items is 100% deterministic)

If they had made the correct way to play the game to be as thorough and perceptive as possible or as careful and clever as possible then POE would be played that way. Want POE to be more SOuls like? make combat slower and more individually lethal and don't let players blaze past and ignore 90% of the game as they do. But they didn't do that.

If they had made the correct way to play the game being tanky and slow, being highly dexterous and reflexive, or recognizing patterns, remembering sequences (puzzles and such)... that would be what most players would do.

But they scoped the game to require millions of kills, and the correct way to play the game to look a lot like a bullet hell space ship shooter.

So naturally thats what they got.

I am still expecting that POE2's incentives and bounding will also make POE2 turn into a bullet hell space ship shooter. I don't see the bounding or the cchange in incentives/win conditions that would indicate otherwise.

Most mechanics in the game want you to go fast or bust.
Until they make it so slow and steady can get shit done without failing encounters "cause wasnt fast enough or didnt kill monsters fast enough" there is no way to shake the speed meta.

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Bosscannon wrote:

Until they make it so slow and steady can get shit done without failing encounters "cause wasnt fast enough or didnt kill monsters fast enough" there is no way to shake the speed meta.

I'll point it out, but every time GGG slow palyers down in any way, our "wonderful" community starts with the hate and death threats.

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lagwin1980 wrote:

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Bosscannon wrote:

Until they make it so slow and steady can get shit done without failing encounters "cause wasnt fast enough or didnt kill monsters fast enough" there is no way to shake the speed meta.

I'll point it out, but every time GGG slow palyers down in any way, our "wonderful" community starts with the hate and death threats.

Yep... exactly.
And for the people who talk about underwater -- that just isn't the case. All PoE2 feedback has been positive.

They just need to stop the SPEED CREEP.. it results in the bad drop tables, the bad monster balance/stupid 1shots, etc.

It's hard to balance around off-screening the entire game. But if they adjust offscreen and full clearing maps in under a minute? Community erupts.

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Bosscannon wrote:

Most mechanics in the game want you to go fast or bust.
Until they make it so slow and steady can get shit done without failing encounters "cause wasnt fast enough or didnt kill monsters fast enough" there is no way to shake the speed meta.

Agreed. But any content that gives a lot of reward for less clear results in terrible community feedback or low community engagement.
The zoomers want to spend more time looting and filtering items off the ground than actually fight anything.

None of them want to fight a boss with low dps -- they want to instantly phase it.

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alhazred70 wrote:

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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Kaboinglefop wrote:

But PoE devolved into this mess due to demand. PoE1 will fill that demand, PoE2 can fill the new demand.

No league has had players directly demand speed, Zoom meta wasn't created by player demand its simply the end of the path the developers chose with the changes they made.

The reason i'm saying this is PoE2 will go in the same direction if they make the same decisions. Power creep is a dangerous tool and its very challenging to get it right, even more so to get it right every 3/4 months.

Indeed, POE isn't fast because players demanded it. POE is fast because GGG scoped to allow it, and incentivized and rewarded it more than any other way to play.

Combine out of bounds DPS and AOE + Unlimited speed + Movement skill spam + automation = lack of bounding which guranteed clear speed meta.

Set your win condition to earning orbs from millions of kills = incentive

Its actually very simple why POE's clear speed meta evolved.

GGG made it possible and they made it the correct way to win the game. they made it the only deterministic way to play as well (earn orbs and buy items is 100% deterministic)

If they had made the correct way to play the game to be as thorough and perceptive as possible or as careful and clever as possible then POE would be played that way. Want POE to be more SOuls like? make combat slower and more individually lethal and don't let players blaze past and ignore 90% of the game as they do. But they didn't do that.

If they had made the correct way to play the game being tanky and slow, being highly dexterous and reflexive, or recognizing patterns, remembering sequences (puzzles and such)... that would be what most players would do.

But they scoped the game to require millions of kills, and the correct way to play the game to look a lot like a bullet hell space ship shooter.

So naturally thats what they got.

I am still expecting that POE2's incentives and bounding will also make POE2 turn into a bullet hell space ship shooter. I don't see the bounding or the cchange in incentives/win conditions that would indicate otherwise.

Much agree with the bolded portion.

The underlined portion scares me for the future of PoE2. Hopefully they rein in the speed creep.
Hopefully GGG actually reads this part of the forums.