Poor GGG, they just can't win can they?

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

I've always indicated that GGG should try to stop the massive pendulum swings that normally occur every 3 months. There is nothing wrong with introducing new content and skills, but imo, there is no reason to be in the meta/nerf spin cycle.

We've been saying something like that for years though, so there has to be a reason for them to 'be in the meta/nerf spin cycle'. Going with your metaphor, I believe it's because it's the easiest way to keep things churning, to maintain at least the verisimilitude of change. I've yet to see proof that these 'massive pendulum swings' aren't 100% calculated and controlled, as chaotic and dramatic as they may seem to mere Exiles. Do you remember when they had to nerf snapshotting of minion-summoning mid-league? THAT was a pendulum swing beyond their control, for sure. Not too long after that, they started actively promoting incoming meta to guide people onto an easily-followed (but never fully OP) path towards and even through the Atlas. I can't confirm that the snapshotting incident was the key moment, but something definitely changed and GGG went from being at the mercy of the spin cycle to calibrating its parameters.

BUT as long as they can make it feel like it's a wild ride, players will be all over it. No one really wants to be on a rollercoaster that doesn't have safety measures, but equally no one would enjoy it if those measures were too obvious, if the inherent experience didn't feel out of control and exhilarating.

When we'd suggest that maybe GGG should just not with the next metaquake and maybe focus on fixing what's already in play (QoL), I think that'd be like telling a theme park operator to shut down its most impressive rides for a season to meticulously ensure they're 100% safe...as opposed to making it, say, 85% safe, opening up for the summer, and watching the cash just flow in.

I've heard that GGG once believed (and maybe still do) that updates that don't have enough 'new' stuff to bring players back don't do very well in the only department that really matters, and I believe it. We can say we want safe, that we want clean, that we want QoL, but I truly believe it's the dangerous and dirty and the slightly rough that opens people's wallets: look at this cool crazy new thing GGG are doing! No other developer would dare! I can't wait to try THAT...

And that's sort of the essence of the spin cycle. It's not meant to be stable; it's not even meant to be a quality experience. It's meant to be just shy of fucking catastrophic. It's about agitation, shock, trauma. And some vague belief that if the machine starts to actually break, a professional can always fix it.

In other words, I think GGG have mastered the simulation of an ARPG in crisis (probably unintentionally for the most part). It's why, more than any other ARPG to date, more than most games, we see so many people predicting PoE's imminent demise. They fall for the trick, and start believing the rollercoaster's actually dangerous, actually out of control. That somehow despite 12 years of relatively smooth operation, it teeters on disaster.

And those who don't fall for this trap, pretend to because that's a big part of the fun. Them, we call 'Exiles'.

...And yeah, I totally ignored the OP itself because...really? GGG can't win? They won long ago, and y'all know it. Don't confuse skirmishes for battles, nor battles for the war.

well said

Shit, if a 40 agrees with me, I have to have gotten SOMETHING right.

(not being sarcastic or facetious here -- I defer to the immensely superior experience of a 40. Even you-know-who, although she was a 12 once and may we never forget it.)

"

Xystre wrote:

Dude everything is viable if you play 10+ hours and you get free handouts by your fans..

Pretty much every build he makes was made with a budget of 30ex-40ex. If you cant get 30ex for a single build in 3 months of a league, better find a guide how to make currency.

"

trixxar wrote:

To be fair to critics, GGG ignores very common sense advice ALL the time.

For years they wouldn't stack currency, saying how bad it would make the game. Then the change, and do they acknowledge they are wrong?

Do they make other QoL improvements, trade, etc?

No, they lied for years, proved they were wrong, and made no further improvements.

I still find it funny the game basically only runs off Currency conversion bots that they dont ban, lol.

I remember a time when those guys didnt exist, and it was freaking horrible.

This game is pretty funny if you think about it. Trade ran off 3rd party programs for years, currency conversion runs off conversion bots, etc.

Hell, you would think at this point they could just code those guys in.

What if those currency bots we trading with are actually GGG "bots".

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

I've always indicated that GGG should try to stop the massive pendulum swings that normally occur every 3 months. There is nothing wrong with introducing new content and skills, but imo, there is no reason to be in the meta/nerf spin cycle.

We've been saying something like that for years though, so there has to be a reason for them to 'be in the meta/nerf spin cycle'. Going with your metaphor, I believe it's because it's the easiest way to keep things churning, to maintain at least the verisimilitude of change. I've yet to see proof that these 'massive pendulum swings' aren't 100% calculated and controlled, as chaotic and dramatic as they may seem to mere Exiles. Do you remember when they had to nerf snapshotting of minion-summoning mid-league? THAT was a pendulum swing beyond their control, for sure. Not too long after that, they started actively promoting incoming meta to guide people onto an easily-followed (but never fully OP) path towards and even through the Atlas. I can't confirm that the snapshotting incident was the key moment, but something definitely changed and GGG went from being at the mercy of the spin cycle to calibrating its parameters.

BUT as long as they can make it feel like it's a wild ride, players will be all over it. No one really wants to be on a rollercoaster that doesn't have safety measures, but equally no one would enjoy it if those measures were too obvious, if the inherent experience didn't feel out of control and exhilarating.

When we'd suggest that maybe GGG should just not with the next metaquake and maybe focus on fixing what's already in play (QoL), I think that'd be like telling a theme park operator to shut down its most impressive rides for a season to meticulously ensure they're 100% safe...as opposed to making it, say, 85% safe, opening up for the summer, and watching the cash just flow in.

I've heard that GGG once believed (and maybe still do) that updates that don't have enough 'new' stuff to bring players back don't do very well in the only department that really matters, and I believe it. We can say we want safe, that we want clean, that we want QoL, but I truly believe it's the dangerous and dirty and the slightly rough that opens people's wallets: look at this cool crazy new thing GGG are doing! No other developer would dare! I can't wait to try THAT...

And that's sort of the essence of the spin cycle. It's not meant to be stable; it's not even meant to be a quality experience. It's meant to be just shy of fucking catastrophic. It's about agitation, shock, trauma. And some vague belief that if the machine starts to actually break, a professional can always fix it.

In other words, I think GGG have mastered the simulation of an ARPG in crisis (probably unintentionally for the most part). It's why, more than any other ARPG to date, more than most games, we see so many people predicting PoE's imminent demise. They fall for the trick, and start believing the rollercoaster's actually dangerous, actually out of control. That somehow despite 12 years of relatively smooth operation, it teeters on disaster.

And those who don't fall for this trap, pretend to because that's a big part of the fun. Them, we call 'Exiles'.

...And yeah, I totally ignored the OP itself because...really? GGG can't win? They won long ago, and y'all know it. Don't confuse skirmishes for battles, nor battles for the war.

I think that perhaps we are skirting around an issue that certainly isnt new admittedly, but has become exaggerated as the scope of the game has grown.

I agree, that for years, we have swung side to side in terms of balance and design. From ES and CI being OP, to the age of the Path of Life Nodes, and beyond.

What has happened in my view, and I'm not so diluted to think that everyone see it this way, is that the long, exhausting, roller coaster ride, has me just wanting to get off, and stay off. Occasionally I look back at the ride and think maybe I want back on, but really dont want to jump through the hoops of getting back in line.

To be more clear, the average player just doesnt have the time, or the willingness, to keep up with 15k word manifestos, balances changes, skill revamps, item changes and legacy impacts, and more(in 3 month windows). There is something to be said for being able to experience PoE in a way that is expected. To login after 6 months and have the ability to know what the fuck is going on, and your "old" build to not be rendered useless, or have to use half a dozen 3rd party tools, and check out a handful of YouTube videos with ridiculous thumbnails.

Also this dramatically swinging development leaves doors open for unintended balnce interactions, bugs, glitches, and other assorted embarrassments. It also simultaneously takes away development resources that could be spent better imo, in areas like QoL, performance, and in-house milestones (like PoB).

I have no doubt that some people love this sort of extreme shifting that seems to keep things artificially fresh, but again, over the long haul it's just exhausts players, and likely the Devs too. I dont know what brought on this development freeze in terms of balance this league, but tbh, I felt like it was a good call. Now it could appear to be a good call for the wrong reasons, like them wanting to do things, but resources are being handled poorly with PoE2 nerves abound.

I suppose the TLDR is that there is something to be said for consistency, and players knowing what to expect from your product. Diablo does this well for example. The only thing about PoE that is consistent, is the fact that its never really consistent. It was charming at first, but now it's more in the meme category. GGG is more known for obliterating nerfs with an occasional "This is a buff". That said you cannot argue with the results. PoE has done well for itself. No doubt about that.

I, too, wanted to get off and stay off -- even though I never REALLY rode the same rollercoaster as most others. Different ride, same park, let's say. And there's no denying I put it off and put it off, because for a while there, being That One Guy On The Ride With The Drop Bears And The Talking Swords was a very strong part of my identity, and I wondered who I'd be otherwise. But eventually the ride just got too rough for these old bones, and I needed to just stop.

So I did. So you should too. And let everyone else still enjoying the ride, whatever that means to them, do so. Like me, like you, they'll come to their own moment. Or, y'know, they won't.

Many haven't, and I think that's what's tripping you up. If I have, if you have, why haven't they?

And that puts us back to where we started here: it doesn't matter why they haven't. What matters is GGG have figured out, more or less, why they keep coming back. And I believe, 100%, that a big part are the things we who just want/wanted off this damn pony thought of as broken: a volatile meta, the lack of QoL that might more closely align PoE with other ARPGs (or, heaven forbid, other, more commercial products), the offset of possibility (you can do so many things!) with probability (you'll only do a few of them, but damn it, you'll do them well), the need to use 3rd party tools (which lends the game an illusion of being worthwhile because using 3rd party tools means YOU ARE NOT FUCKING AROUND ANYMORE), the exclusivity of having to stay in the loop (PoE, like any GaaS, rewards dedication and punishes a lack of it)...and so on. The game is obviously not perfect, but it's perfectly good for what it does and how it does it. And once you see that as I do, you start to realise that awful cliche is true yet again: we're looking at design features, not problematic bugs.

You speak of the average player -- the average player does not exist here. The average player is off playing games they can do averagely (just don't tell them that) OR have found another lifestyle game as their rollercoaster (and there are straight up better ones out there -- FFXIV, for example). For whatever reason, PoE has a huge playerbase and most of them are not average. I can't say whether they're 'better' or 'worse' because I don't think that's the scale in play here. It's more 'dedicated' vs 'casual' but even that doesn't cut it. So maybe we should just dispense with that word altogether, that notion. Average player. I think only GGG fully understand what an average PoE player is like, and the rest of us are left befuddled.

It's a sort of statistical madness with which most of us are familiar: most popular opinions as expressed through the hard fact of sales figures and/or money made seem shit. Worse: MOST criticisms of those popular opinions seem to agree. For example, certain books and movies that everyone, not just snobbish critics but your friends and family, agree are shit make a lot of money. If everyone's decrying this stuff, who's buying it? Simple answer: silent majority, maybe as a guilty pleasure or something. Live and let live and all that, right?

Still, it niggles, this disparity between popular spoken opinion and popularity proven by statistics. Let it niggle, but for goodness' sake, don't try to understand it. Again, that's GGG's business, not ours. It sucks to say it, but I believe it's folly to try to understand a business purely through its product's utility to the user as a user. Sure, there's a whole industry built around it now (UX or User Experience -- what an awfully millennial acronym, but I guess we Gen X nerds always had XP for Experience Points) but businesses typically don't tap users for that -- they know that there is a sizeable gap between what users say and what they experience. The suggestion box has always been more for the users' benefit than the business'...

At any rate, while your position is sound, I don't think it's even close to universal despite a bunch of people agreeing with you. Ride or don't. It's that simple. But try not to conflate the broken relationship between you and it with any sort of genuine malfunction. It's possible -- which is why we give feedback in the first place -- but it's not probable.

Far more things are a 'you' problem than any of 'us' are willing to admit, because admitting it means, it's, you know, 'our' fault somehow. I think the key is understanding that a 'you' problem doesn't make you WRONG.

...It's fucking weird how often my delving into Path of Exile's intricacies turn into relationship advice columns and/or addiction recovery meetings.

And yeah, I'm gonna leave it there. Time's up for this session.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

verisimilitude

F**k, I love that word.

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

Shit, if a 40 agrees with me, I have to have gotten SOMETHING right.

(not being sarcastic or facetious here -- I defer to the immensely superior experience of a 40. Even you-know-who, although she was a 12 once and may we never forget it.)

I also 100% agree with your sentiment. Does my 40 cancel out their 40?

How many people saying "There are no new builds", really mean that there are no new easily exploitable new skill/gear combinations?

IMO, it is good to occasionally get off the buff/nerf metacycle. I would really be surprised if there were many players that have played ALL the viable build combos. If they had played all the ones that had big juicy exploits during a league, I wouldn't be surprised.

How many players worrying about new builds are creating their own builds, versus using someone else's build guide?

I think GGG made the right call. I expect that not having to patch a bunch of unbalanced things will give the devs more time to work on better balance changes for the next league.