The Self Found League

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

No, I really mean it would ruin it for everyone. This suggestion is an amputation, not a cure.

And so now you are on an expert on "everyone" -- qualified to say what would and would not ruin things for people? This is what happens when people lost touch with actual reality. Dude, in case there's still functioning synapses here's a tidbit. You are not "everyone". As a general rule, the rest of us know what is "best for us" more than you do.

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snapple99 wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

No, I really mean it would ruin it for everyone. This suggestion is an amputation, not a cure.

And so now you are on an expert on "everyone" -- qualified to say what would and would not ruin things for people? This is what happens when people lost touch with actual reality. Dude, in case there's still functioning synapses here's a tidbit. You are not "everyone". As a general rule, the rest of us know what is "best for us" more than you do.

Ironically, I am not the first to claim to know what is "best for everyone" — the creators of this thread and its supporters are. The claim that this is "just for those interested," "only an option" is a fallacy, as it always is.

Games are about making choices. Whenever you make a choice in a game, how that choice is rewarded or punished is important. This is why the choice to focus on dual totem Spark, or the choice to go heavily into ES, or the choice to wear Kaom's, are all hotly debated topics. In any of those debates, the rare oddity who claims "it's optional" is blasted, because we all recognize that optimization is the name of the game, and thus the choices are imbalanced. This is the right thing for us to do in cases where such imbalance exists, and this issue is no exception: "it's an option" is not a valid defense.

The real question is: how will the previously uninterested, min/max player respond to this choice? There are basically three possible outcomes:

• Self-Found League is underpowered; the droprate compensation is negligible or perhaps even non-existent. This is actually the best possible outcome; like Hardcore and its death penalty, this would give a league for masochists to prove their mettle. Several would join this league for much the same reasons players choose hardcore. Trading in the old leagues would still be just as ridiculous as it was before.
• Self-Found League is overpowered; the droprate more than compensates for the lack of trading. This is the worst possible outcome; min/maxers flock to Self-Found league in droves, only dedicated market tycoons remain in the old leagues, and you've achieved the death of trading in PoE, virtually killing a demographic which you might be very different from but nevertheless constitutes a good portion of the players of this game. Trading in the old leagues would be even more ridiculous than it was before.
• Self-Found League and trading leagues are very precisely balanced. I almost hesitate to even consider this, because the odds of this happening are near zero; it's far more likely to be underpowered or overpowered in some way, and even the slightest deviation would be picked up on by astute players within weeks and thus fall into one of the two categories above instead. Nevertheless, if this did happen it would essentially split PoE's population in half, making it harder than ever to play with your friends, and trading in the old leagues would even more ridiculous than it was before, but it won't be quite as bad as the "Self-Found is overpowered" scenario because some who are merely mildly tycoony would remain.

The common denominator there is amputation vs actually fixing a mechanic. Trading would still be just as pathetically imbalanced as it is now; the only thing that might change is player's ability to ignore it.

This is exactly the problem we had with loot options, and I'm embarrassed by the way it was fixed. We didn't fix loot tension; we amputated it. I understand fully that there were serious balance problems with how Short Allocation loot worked, the same as I understand that there are serious balance problems with the economies currently. But you don't fix them by throwing them in the trash! By amputating loot tension, GGG gave up on a mechanic that had potential, but had not yet delivered, and as such prevented it from ever delivering; the safe vanilla crap forced upon us does not match up to what could have been. I believe that is exactly what this suggestion aims to do. I don't see a tone of self-imposed masochism that would befit the "Self-Found League is underpowered" scenario, which is the only one of those two that doesn't ruin it for everyone; instead I see a desire to amputate, deliberately and knowingly, under the belief that separate but equal can exist.

It cannot. Not in games, and perhaps not even in life (for reference, see civil rights movements throughout history and across the globe). The only right way to fix issues is fix them together, not form silly separatist movements. When such movements succeed, you end up with two groups which are both weaker than the unrealized combined whole. And that is how this suggestion would ruin it for everybody.

I agree that boosting drops to make up for lack of trading could have bad results but I would be interested in playing a league with no changes in anything but with no trading, ever. Builds would be unique because extremes would be harder to build leaving simpler less gear focused builds as desirable. The league would be awesome. Harder than hardcore at high levels. I would say that trading should be allowed between characters on one account through the stash, but nothing more.

Yeah, that sounds soooo good, such a thing would be pretty amazing, I fear that would segregate the community even more than it already is though.
But still....Don't care, would love it.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Self-Found League is overpowered; the droprate more than compensates for the lack of trading. This is the worst possible outcome; min/maxers flock to Self-Found league in droves, only dedicated market tycoons remain in the old leagues, and you've achieved the death of trading in PoE, virtually killing a demographic which you might be very different from but nevertheless constitutes a good portion of the players of this game.

False assumptions. The idea that a Self-Found league would "kill a demographic" of the game is ridiculous, unless you also think that not having a Self-Found league kills a demographic that you may not be a part of, but nevertheless constitutes a good portion of the players.

The dystopian future you predict where trading is the sole domain of dedicated market tycoons is almost upon us already, with or without a Self-Found league.

You say Short Allocation had potential and was abandoned... what potential? What did that mechanic ever add to the enjoyment of the game, unless you were a ninja?

Why should trading be fixed? What is it about the mechanism of trading that adds to the experience of the game?

The basic argument you are making could be applied to any mechanic in the game, even those that don't exist yet. Don't much care for Pokémon-style monster-raising and battling? Who cares? Some people may like it, so why throw it out the window? Don't want to worry about building a city and farming in an ARPG? Too bad! Some people enjoy Sim Farm so we're gonna throw it in! After all, why simply amputate the farming and poké-battles from the game when we could fix them together!

NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO TRADE YOU DON'T WANNA TRADE THEN DON'T. USE WHAT YOU FIND THAT SIMPLE

very bad idea this idea would ruin this game for good

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LVHAXOR wrote:

NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO TRADE YOU DON'T WANNA TRADE THEN DON'T. USE WHAT YOU FIND THAT SIMPLE

very bad idea this idea would ruin this game for good

How would it ruin the game?

Also, it's not that simple. If it were that simple, there would be no HC league because people could just delete their characters when they die. The point of the league is so you can be sure that the other people you are playing with are self-found as well.

I would play self found league 100%. Better even fair competition.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Self-Found League is overpowered; the droprate more than compensates for the lack of trading. This is the worst possible outcome; min/maxers flock to Self-Found league in droves, only dedicated market tycoons remain in the old leagues, and you've achieved the death of trading in PoE, virtually killing a demographic which you might be very different from but nevertheless constitutes a good portion of the players of this game. Trading in the old leagues would be even more ridiculous than it was before.

Re the underlined part:

Why do you think that min/maxers would flock to a self-found league?

There would be no guarantee that you will ever see any of the sought after end game / build enabling uniques, and there would still be no guarantee that you will drop or even craft a BiS item.

How on earth is that attractive to your min-maxers? Trading is the only way around the RNG, even an improved one in a self-found league if it ever came to pass. The min/maxers are using the current system to min/max, and doing very well it seems. Do the min/maxers find trading "ridiculous" or "imbalanced"?

I have 3 or 4 Ex (maybe) worth of currency in my stash after several hundred hours of playing. I have no desire to deal with trade/pvp and I am obviously not a min/maxer, because my lvl 80 Duelist is still using a weapon that he found 22 levels ago.

I want a self-found league, so go figure.

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DijiGo wrote:

Why do you think that min/maxers would flock to a self-found league?

There would be no guarantee that you will ever see any of the sought after end game / build enabling uniques, and there would still be no guarantee that you will drop or even craft a BiS item.

You seem to be forgetting that most traders farm in order to get things worth trading away, then trade for things they need for their character. So they would be weighing their old farm+trade vs the new leagues' pure farm. It's not that hard at all to imagine droprate being increased enough that, instead of trading for things for their character, they just farm/make them directly instead. Only arbitrage experts — people who make profit from continual buy/sell, like stock market salesmen — would remain in the trading leagues in such a circumstance... and they'd find the only people to trade with are other arbitrage experts, leading to an even more cutthroat trading culture. It would be similar to the effect of loot options on Short Allocation; before, you'd run into many who wouldn't be super cutthroat about loot, but after everyone on SA is a superninja.