3.16 is disappointing, more powercreep for the wealthy and no toning down of OP content

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Orbaal wrote:

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Azarhiel wrote:

The problem with 3.15 an,d 3.16 are that they did not reduce power.

It did reduce the average powerlevel, thats what matters here.

GGG never cared about players sinking tons of time into the game being extremely OP. There wasnt a single league in the past when this wasnt the case.
But you have to invest a ton of time to get there.

GGG wont nerf that, because it provides players with that much time on their hands with a goal and GGG also wont balance the game around these guys. They are an anomaly GGG simply doesnt care about and never did.


What they do care about is the average playerpower. If that spikes up too much due to for instance Harvest or a specific build can get there too easily, thats when the Nerfbat will hit hard.

GGG has a specific timeframe in mind how long it should take to get powerful enough for super lategame content. I cant tell you the specifics but I do know they have drawn this line in the sand and will defend this line - sometimes with drastic measures.
This is how they have been operating for years.

I think the more pertinent point is that GGG should focus less on power level of average player and more on the actual game play experience and design of the game.

GGG has historically always been guilty of using primitive and crude techniques to reign in the power level.

The points about game over emphasising dps, clear and speed are valid ones and it's gotten to this stage because in order to prevent players from doing content easily, they took the easy way out by overturning mob damage to be so high that predominantantly speaking it only makes sense to invest enough defence so you can last long enough to wipe the screen in that second or so.

This means that generally speaking certain archetypes that rely on some amount of tanking (I.e. actually melee as in melee range/channeling) have historically been terrible.

While I do agree with GGGs goal of slowing down the game is the correct one, if they want to do this well they have to crack some eggs and change their minds about those hard lines. For example the recent changes should have also been accompanied with changes in monster health/damage and if they happened to have overshot this and make the game "too easy", this is fine at least they have a feedback mechanism they can work with.

In summary in order to slow the game down successfully, GGG needs to experience some pain and they also need to revisit their core assumptions and principles. You can't have your cake and eat it too, of they actually want to slow the game down something had to give

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deteego wrote:

I think the more pertinent point is that GGG should focus less on power level of average player and more on the actual game play experience and design of the game.

the power level of the average player is the core of the play experience and design of the game?

According to @Orbaal this is the case.

GGG has stated many times that they balance around softcore standard (although what they mean by standard is the current league) but judging from their actions its not a stretch to say they balance around the "upper average", i.e. if generally people are progressing faster through content than GGG likes this is when the massive nerfhammer comes down.

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deteego wrote:

judging from their actions its not a stretch to say they balance around the "upper average"

I have to disagree here.

Often times the term "the game" is used as an equivilant "the endgame", when its obviously not the same.

I wouldnt consider it a healthy structure for the endgame, if average players or even worse everyone could easily get there, let alone beat it. Based on that I think its absolutely fair and valid to balance the hardest parts of the game (as in super lategame) for a minority and still balance "the game" from act1 to early endgame including yellow maps around the average player.


Its not even hyperbole to say that the notion of "the game starts at T14" has been put forward quite often by plenty players. In doing so they are discarding about 90-95% of the available content and then point out they are excluded from the remaining 5-10%, which they consider to be "the game".
Thats ridiculous at best as far as Im concerned.
Id even go there and call it narcissism and entitlement.

The hardest content should always be balanced around the best players, the rest should be available for the average player. Thats what I would call a healthy structure for the game and thats pretty much how PoE is.

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Orbaal wrote:

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deteego wrote:

judging from their actions its not a stretch to say they balance around the "upper average"

I have to disagree here.

Often times the term "the game" is used as an equivilant "the endgame", when its obviously not the same.

I wouldnt consider it a healthy structure for the endgame, if average players or even worse everyone could easily get there, let alone beat it. Based on that I think its absolutely fair and valid to balance the hardest parts of the game (as in super lategame) for a minority and still balance "the game" from act1 to early endgame including yellow maps around the average player.


Its not even hyperbole to say that the notion of "the game starts at T14" has been put forward quite often by plenty players. In doing so they are discarding about 90-95% of the available content and then point out they are excluded from the remaining 5-10%, which they consider to be "the game".
Thats ridiculous at best as far as Im concerned.
Id even go there and call it narcissism and entitlement.

The hardest content should always be balanced around the best players, the rest should be available for the average player. Thats what I would call a healthy structure for the game and thats pretty much how PoE is.

Finally you show your elitist gatekeeper colors. So nice of you to decide that the majority of game population that is average player does not deserve to see past yellow maps :))) You are the entitled narcissist here, because you allow yourself to decide that majority of playerbase being able to see the entirety of the game takes a back seat to your need for the endgame to be challenging enough for you, the minority, specifically.

Your notions of whats fair and how things should be done are entirely to be dismissed at this point because you are not looking to make the most people happy, only yourself.

So, from what i get from elitists here is :

GGG does care of average player power :

Wrong, if that was the case, i don't see why my Double Strike Claw champion took a 80% DPS nerf in 9 month down to less than 200K DPS.

I have to play the game has is because it has no problems of GTFO :

Wrong, why i have to spend 30 minutes in a T2 influenced map when i 3shot blue mobs and took 3 minutes to fight the map bosses but needed 25 minutes to fight 3 packs of rares with Extra Life and Health Regen ?

If that is really what GGG intend to do going forward, i don't see the game going 5 more years...

PoE is a game, not a full time job... Why would we have to do a double work shift to experience all og the game ?!!

Why am I not surprised that Im being namecalled straight away? ^^


What you guys want is the endgame to be a participation trophy - I dont.
Thats really the only difference.

The funny part is that there are plenty games availale doing just that.
Go play those. Let PoE be one of the games not treating endgame as a worthless participation trophy.


This would be the point in time for you guys to point out that the other games are shallow and boring. Yup, thats what you get, if the supposedly toughest part of the game is available for everyone.

You cant have your cake and eat it too.
Thats why I called it entitlement.

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Orbaal wrote:

Why am I not surprised that Im being namecalled straight away? ^^


What you guys want is the endgame to be a participation trophy - I dont.
Thats really the only difference.

The funny part is that there are plenty games availale doing just that.
Go play those. Let PoE be one of the games not treating endgame as a worthless participation trophy.


This would be the point in time for you guys to point out that the other games are shallow and boring. Yup, thats what you get, if the supposedly toughest part of the game is available for everyone.

You cant have your cake and eat it too.
Thats why I called it entitlement.

Yes i'm intrigued to see how many ARPG's that are as good as PoE in term of content... I'm practically sure that you won't find many of those...

On a side not, if they continue this trend, money will potentially dry out and you won't even have a game to play anymore.

They went into communication in 3.15 to make players return in 3.16 and still the league is half garbage and pissed off players again... In 3.17, i suspect that a portion of players won't even return again and with the impact in income, they will do PR again for not long term benefit for the game and its player base that is not pure hardcore players...

What i want is experience the endgame, not being burnt out trying to reach it by spending 10h a day in trying... This is not my job !!

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Orbaal wrote:

The hardest content should always be balanced around the best players, the rest should be available for the average player. Thats what I would call a healthy structure for the game and thats pretty much how PoE is.

True enough, with the amount of time and effort I'm putting into the game I can't really ask to farm the... aspirational content in good conscience.

I mean, how many players finished final fantasy games and how many have beat super giga omega weapons or uber eidolons/aeons or whatever they call them? Mind you, those aren't even games that label themselves as hardcore, or are actually trying to keep dedicated players busy, season after season.

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raics wrote:

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Orbaal wrote:

The hardest content should always be balanced around the best players, the rest should be available for the average player. Thats what I would call a healthy structure for the game and thats pretty much how PoE is.

True enough, with the amount of time and effort I'm putting into the game I can't really ask to farm the... aspirational content in good conscience.

I mean, how many players finished final fantasy games and how many have beat super giga omega weapons or uber eidolons/aeons or whatever they call them? Mind you, those aren't even games that label themselves as hardcore, or are actually trying to keep dedicated players busy, season after season.

Hardest content should be hard but reachable if you don't have a time constrain.

Final Fantasy omega bosses are doable because you can spend a year grinding for the prerequisites to do it.

And i have done all of them on every FF that had one and that are not online games.

In a 3 month gap, unless you take PoE as a SECOND JOB, you can't do that. This is WHERE the PROBLEM IS.