new Armour formula doesnt change a thing - it is still something you leave others to use

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

Why the hell would you be stacking armour on a 2H build? That's just stupid. You stack armour on block builds and fast hitting LGOH builds to make your recovery work for you in a dragged out fights.

so in general 'dont play 2h builds'? or 'AR is bad on its own'? pick one

everything is bad on its own

"

sidtherat wrote:

ES is 'life', so no wonder people use up all prefixes to get as much of ES as possible

AR is NOT 'life'.

POE in current form (and that is NOT changing in 3.16) is buffer > everything else type of game.

i dont agree, i have a legacy kaoms for example, its complete shit. you can use it if you also stack either very high block, very high evasion or very high dodge, then its good.

you know, just like youre saying armour is only good if you also have good block or evasion etc... yeah, same with life stacking.

ive got 1k es vaal regs etc... same, try and just run around with 10k - 12k es and no other defences. its garbage, you can make a raider with 7k life that feels way more tanky off the back of a coil, ev and dodge.

"

RoyalMarauder wrote:

Armor is crap, no matter how you try to say otherwise.
My Jugger with 77% max res, 7k HP, and around 50k armor two handed is dying like 100x more time, than my 5k hp Gladiator, with average armor, but max block chance.

You can try it as hard as you like, but ain't happening bud.

50k armour... yeah thats an armour stacking build. 50k with a 2h, there you go, thats what people trying to stack armour on a 2h build get.

theres no point in it, id never make a 50k armour build, but thats an actual armour build who made an effort and he doesnt even have a shield. they dont get 5k armour, they get 50k.

the armour isnt universally crap, its just like everything else in the game, not enough on its own. if you dropped 25k armour and picked up 15k evasion instead your build would be infinitely better, it would feel a lot more like your gladiator, esp if u could blind things. that would be 40k total defence, it would feel so much better than 50k total defence all into armour.

if you checked an ehp calc ud probably find it agreed with you, that your glad would come out way better and dropping half your armour for some evasion would show way more ehp. if you dont have avoidance like good block, evasion, dodgde... you find out the truth about "only 1 shots matter"... they really dont, most of the time shit builds die theyre getting bursted down in yellow and red maps. avoidance is strong stuff, getting 50k armour and having no avoidance is, well, as you have found out.

all that phys as extra elemental etc, evasion is dealing with that, block is dealing, armour is just taking it on the chin. i dont agree that makes armour worthless, i just think i would stop at say 20k armour on a build like that and go look for avoidance instead with that other 30k of investment.






the real issue isnt armour, it does what its supposed to do and will do it better with these changes. as some people have said, what is the content you are pitching your character against? if your day to day on your character is just spamming maven, sirus etc 24/7 then its total shit, not because armour needs buffed, but because they way they make that sort of content is wrong.

if your day to day is just chaining t16 maps or running lab or something armour is fine, it does its thing. like all defences you dont go all in and expect it to carry you on its own, you get some of it without putting yourself out too much and then get some of some other things.

the damage profiles of really high end content are poorly designed, they bypass defences like armour and evasion, that needs changed. that doesnt mean armour and evasion are shit though, that means its shit for the 0.001% of players who actually farm that content a lot on all their characters. i have characters who can do that sort of content fairly easy but if you stick them in t16 maps and run them all day theyre shit compared to some other characters that have armour and/or evasion because theyre so fragile to burst damage from trash.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

everything is bad on its own

Block and dodge are not.
Max block/spell block aaaaand poof, 75% of all incoming hit based damage is gone.
Just that easy.

Armor suck cos it doesnt work against ALL incoming damage, like evasion and ES do. It is a shitty quasy resistance, that doesnt allways work.

Do you want rest of your resistance roll from -100 to +75(or whatever max res you have) each time you get damage?

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sidtherat wrote:

and have you? throwing random ideas without supporting experience doesnt work.



but since youve asked: yes and stun as a mechanic is worthless because of the same reason Armour is - it is cool and cozzy vs mobs you dont care about but fails when you need it the most

GGG deleted stun from the game as a viable defensive mechanic introducing 4s window of 'stun immunity' on bosses, increasing unique enemies life, messing about with stun threshold when theyve changed ailment thresholds etc and ofc making some of them outright unwavering.

stun in endgame is WORTHLESS - even with 94% STR (so way after diminishing returns kick in) and 100%+ stun duration. been there, done that. it is waste of time - even GGG admits stun is broken (their own comments when people started complaining about Boneshatter being bugged. it is stun's state, not a Boneshatter's bug)

You might be right, you might be wrong, who knows? Fact is, stun can work against those feared physical gained as ele mobs of yours that you keep trying to mitigate the damage of with armour and then screaming in the forums that it doesn't work.

"

Pyrokar wrote:

You might be right, you might be wrong, who knows? Fact is, stun can work against those feared physical gained as ele mobs of yours that you keep trying to mitigate the damage of with armour and then screaming in the forums that it doesn't work.

Unwaving, Armored, Extra Health - negate stun.
maces have shittiest scaling on the tree and also they are as popular and available as penguins in arctica.

"

sckiff wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

everything is bad on its own

Block and dodge are not.
Max block/spell block aaaaand poof, 75% of all incoming hit based damage is gone.
Just that easy.

Armor suck cos it doesnt work against ALL incoming damage, like evasion and ES do. It is a shitty quasy resistance, that doesnt allways work.

Do you want rest of your resistance roll from -100 to +75(or whatever max res you have) each time you get damage?

I have talking about this from long time.
Firstable armor buff is straight up terrible. Too little, and on top of that they nerf Dodge and Block big time.
Secondable just like you say, Armor needs to mitigate other source of DMG, not just physical attacks, and not to mention the formula is so much ***** and how much armor you need to mitigate so little DMG.

Conclusion - Armor was bad, and it's still bad. The whole thing about armor is they nerf the real defenses big time, and are giving us a bad one, locked behind more RNG, and the game become even more bloated and even more of a mess.

Zero chance i'm coming back playing this.

"

the real issue isnt armour, it does what its supposed to do and will do it better with these changes. as some people have said, what is the content you are pitching your character against? if your day to day on your character is just spamming maven, sirus etc 24/7 then its total shit, not because armour needs buffed, but because they way they make that sort of content is wrong.

problem i see: it is not just 'mavens and sirus'

content has been leaning HEAVILY into elemental damage since.. Breach. 4 out of 5 breaches completely ignore Armour as a defence. same deal with essences: there is like phys mod per 20 elemental ones. delve? same deal (albeit at least the bosses are mechanical so you can outplay them, not outtank them)

i like running Heists - guess what? what kills you there is all elemental

legions? there is ONE (grossly overturned) phys mob there and 50 elemental ones. same deal with legion bosses. Armour does jack to help fighting most of them

Harvest? omg how stupid harvest plots are if you are strike melee char relying on armour. hardly anything there deals phys HIT damage


Armour is the easiest thing to drop because it simply is not relevant in 'modern POE' - full of elemental vomit coming from all directions. the mobs' damage output is simply skewed so hard into elemental that AR no longer brings any value

and.. once you finally need it - it fails you due to terrible scaling. i doubt the new one will fix that.

on top of that Armour does nothing vs phys DoTs - the staple phys damage in endgame for some reason


if it was for one/two well designed, mechanical bosses? sure, i can live with that. but it isnt.


to make AR relevant GGG has to consider:
- making it affect phys DoTs
- do something about elemental damage. +2 max res on a garbage Notable is not 'doing something' ffs
- redesign entire game to be FAR less ele-damage biased (lolpossible)

they ofc did fourth way, aka make it slightly less garbage which is ofc fine but in the game they make picking AR is STILL a bad idea. quite a sad state of 'primary' defence.


people are going to realise it soon enough when the staple defence of last 4 years (blind/dodge/block) no longer work and they have to look for alternatives.

CI theyll pick because CI buffs are actually mindbogglingly huge

"

sckiff wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

everything is bad on its own

Block and dodge are not.
Max block/spell block aaaaand poof, 75% of all incoming hit based damage is gone.
Just that easy.

i dont agree, you need enough hit pool/damage reduction to survive the hits that get through, and those 2 mechanics are completely random so even with 75% you can just take 3 hits in a row within the space of a second.

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

the real issue isnt armour, it does what its supposed to do and will do it better with these changes. as some people have said, what is the content you are pitching your character against? if your day to day on your character is just spamming maven, sirus etc 24/7 then its total shit, not because armour needs buffed, but because they way they make that sort of content is wrong.

problem i see: it is not just 'mavens and sirus'

content has been leaning HEAVILY into elemental damage since.. Breach. 4 out of 5 breaches completely ignore Armour as a defence. same deal with essences: there is like phys mod per 20 elemental ones. delve? same deal (albeit at least the bosses are mechanical so you can outplay them, not outtank them)

i like running Heists - guess what? what kills you there is all elemental

legions? there is ONE (grossly overturned) phys mob there and 50 elemental ones. same deal with legion bosses. Armour does jack to help fighting most of them

Harvest? omg how stupid harvest plots are if you are strike melee char relying on armour. hardly anything there deals phys HIT damage


Armour is the easiest thing to drop because it simply is not relevant in 'modern POE' - full of elemental vomit coming from all directions. the mobs' damage output is simply skewed so hard into elemental that AR no longer brings any value

and.. once you finally need it - it fails you due to terrible scaling. i doubt the new one will fix that.

on top of that Armour does nothing vs phys DoTs - the staple phys damage in endgame for some reason


if it was for one/two well designed, mechanical bosses? sure, i can live with that. but it isnt.


to make AR relevant GGG has to consider:
- making it affect phys DoTs
- do something about elemental damage. +2 max res on a garbage Notable is not 'doing something' ffs
- redesign entire game to be FAR less ele-damage biased (lolpossible)

they ofc did fourth way, aka make it slightly less garbage which is ofc fine but in the game they make picking AR is STILL a bad idea. quite a sad state of 'primary' defence.


people are going to realise it soon enough when the staple defence of last 4 years (blind/dodge/block) no longer work and they have to look for alternatives.

CI theyll pick because CI buffs are actually mindbogglingly huge

you make fair points, cant disagree with most of that. i think armour brings value for mapping, but its certainly not the thing that deals with 75% of your problems that youre gonna put 75% of your characters defence investment into, its probably closer to 25% on both counts.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Spoiler

original source: https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q4jde5/i_made_armor_evasion_energy_shield_and/

I see people posting various 'oh, we are saved, Armour is great again' revelations around. I finally have found why they think it is so - or I presume it is it.

I agree that AR formula calculation change is a buff. It is a buff, long overdue one btw. However, this 'buff' is meaningless.

why?

big scary stuff (endgame bosses, modded blobs of doom etc) still hits for way more than used in the examples (where AR is far less effective) or deals mostly elemental damage or BOTH.

This.. +1

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

i dont agree

Do you think avoidance care if you agree or not?
Avoidance does it job well.
Can you survive rest it is another question.

And about armor being 25% of defensive investments, I would strongly argue against it.
In deep delve, high modded maping elemental damage is about 80% to 95% of incoming damage.
Do you realy want to invest 25% of recources in ~10% of incoming damage?
I'd say stay with 3 endurance charges and amount of armor you get from items.

I don't understand why they don't just make armor give a set amount of %phys reduction that only scales vs monster level instead of this goofy damage-based formula.

Block, endurance, spell dodge, suppression, life, ES and resistances are all consistent defensive types where you always know exactly what you're getting from them. Even evasion, despite accuracy rating being variable, has a certain level of reliability to it. It's just too hard to tell whether your armor will protect you sufficiently when the game's poor visual clarity makes it hard to discern what will or won't hit you hard when you're taking on packs, which is further exacerbated by ARPGs being oriented around fighting the largest packs possible by design

Defensive mechanics need to provide a measure of confidence in the situations they're intended to be useful and armor just doesn't do that well enough, it's practically a noob trap stat which simply isn't acceptable for what is supposed to be a core defensive type