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DoubleU wrote:
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korn7809 wrote:
Why would RF not work? burning a set area with a consistent nova? Also Molten Shell?
To me, Nova implies an explosion of some sort.
RF does not do that.
Molten Shell on the other hand, good question.
Looking at how Shock Ground is a lingering effect the only action of placing the effect then RF should count as well. It just has a different method of duration.
Unless they are changing or picking part of the definition of "nova" then there is a lingering effect. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nova - a star showing a sudden large increase in brightness and then slowly returning to its original state over a few months.
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Posted bykorn7809#6196on Dec 11, 2019, 9:18:31 PM
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korn7809 wrote:
Why would RF not work? burning a set area with a consistent nova? Also Molten Shell?
Both of those are buffs that affect an area around you. RF is probsbly closer to an aura than to nova skills.
I make dumb builds, therefore I am.
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Posted byFCK42#0688on Dec 11, 2019, 9:21:05 PM
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Ashriel wrote:
Special support effects can do that and do exist elsewhere in the game though.
No, they do not.
Tags are fundamentally not changable. They have never been changable.
Support effects can change which other supports apply. That has nothing to do with tags, and never has. Tags do not and never have determined supportability.
Melee Splash adds an area of effect to strike skills which didn't have one.
This does allows those skills to be supported by support that require an area off effect.
It does not grant those skills the Area tag.
They do not start getting affected by modifiers that say "Area Skills..." because they do not gain the tag, and are not considered Area Skills.
Supports completely ignore tags and only look at whether the skill has an actual area, taking other supports into account.
Effects referring to "[tag] skills" always ignore what the skill does and only look for the tag. They are not the same thing. This new one is the latter.
Tags are not supportability, supportability is not tags.
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Ashriel wrote:
And of course Discharge is a great example of a Nova, yes, but is lacking a Nova tag, since that hasn't existed (and does not currently exist, today). So you "honestly" are being disengenuous for no good reason and you know it.
I am not being disingenuous. I am explaining the actual mechanics by which the game works, as they pertain to this new item.
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Ashriel wrote:
The fact remains you are changing Sire of Shards because... what, you are not wanting to code it?
We are not changing Sire of Shards in any mechanical way. Sire of Shards will function in exactly the same way it always has. We have changed a description to remove possible confusion due to using the same word for two different things.
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Ashriel wrote:
Also, yes, I saw a similar answer about a year ago on reddit. Yet if this were true Death's Oath would not work with Arcane Surge but was still suddenly discovered to do so one day and has ever since.
Then you still do not understand the answer. Death's Oath does not have a Duration tag. It cannot be given a duration tag. Arcane Surge can support it, and this gives the skill an effect with a duration. It does not give it the duration tag, and has never done so.
Having an effect with a duration means that other supports that only support skills with a duration will be able to apply. This still has nothing to do with tags.
There are currently no stats that say "Duration Skills have..." in PoE, but if there were, they would not apply to Death's Oath in this situation, because while it gained an effect with a duration (which is what supports care about), it did not gain a tag (which is what stats that identify skills by their tags care about).
These rules have been this way since we first added tags to PoE. Supportability has never cared about tags. Effects which look for tags on skills have never cared about supportability.
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Posted byMark_GGGon Dec 11, 2019, 9:21:53 PMGrinding Gear Games
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@Korn
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A nova, despite its name, isn't actually a "new" star, but rather one that wasn't noticed until it exploded, when it may increase in brightness by a million times before returning to its previous state a few days later.
From the same website you quoted.
~ Adapt, Improvise and Overcome Last edited by DoubleU#7266 on Dec 11, 2019, 9:22:42 PM
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Posted byDoubleU#7266on Dec 11, 2019, 9:22:15 PM
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I'd like to thank Mark for politely putting up with the abuse he is getting while only trying to be helpful. If it's any consolation, that happens every class I've taught for the last 30+ years. People don't like to be told they're not understanding something when it's absolutely clear and objective fact that they don't. They take it personally. Best to pat them on the head and send them out to recess where they can take out their frustration on the smaller kids or some stray puppy.
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Posted byShagsbeard#3964on Dec 11, 2019, 9:29:48 PM
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DoubleU wrote:
@Korn
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A nova, despite its name, isn't actually a "new" star, but rather one that wasn't noticed until it exploded, when it may increase in brightness by a million times before returning to its previous state a few days later.
From the same website you quoted.
So it has nothing to do with the original definition :P.
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FCK42 wrote:
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korn7809 wrote:
Why would RF not work? burning a set area with a consistent nova? Also Molten Shell?
Both of those are buffs that affect an area around you. RF is probsbly closer to an aura than to nova skills.
But aren't the damaging effects still novas? They are effects centered around yourself. Do they need to add a new "Buff" tag and exclude "Buff"s from working with the ring?
I'm just trying to get a better handling on the definition of "nova" for POE.
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Posted bykorn7809#6196on Dec 11, 2019, 9:31:02 PM
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Mark_GGG wrote:
...There are currently no stats that say "Duration Skills have..." in PoE, ...
There's a corruption implicit on gloves that grants +2 to level of socketed duration gems, but that still can't affect Death's Oath anyway :D
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Mark_GGG wrote:
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Ashriel wrote:
Special support effects can do that and do exist elsewhere in the game though.
No, they do not.
Tags are fundamentally not changable. They have never been changable.
Support effects can change which other supports apply. That has nothing to do with tags, and never has. Tags do not and never have determined supportability.
Melee Splash adds an area of effect to strike skills which didn't have one.
This does allows those skills to be supported by support that require an area off effect.
It does not grant those skills the Area tag.
They do not start getting affected by modifiers that say "Area Skills..." because they do not gain the tag, and are not considered Area Skills.
Supports completely ignore tags and only look at whether the skill has an actual area, taking other supports into account.
Effects referring to "[tag] skills" always ignore what the skill does and only look for the tag. They are not the same thing. This new one is the latter.
Tags are not supportability, supportability is not tags.
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Ashriel wrote:
And of course Discharge is a great example of a Nova, yes, but is lacking a Nova tag, since that hasn't existed (and does not currently exist, today). So you "honestly" are being disengenuous for no good reason and you know it.
I am not being disingenuous. I am explaining the actual mechanics by which the game works, as they pertain to this new item.
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Ashriel wrote:
The fact remains you are changing Sire of Shards because... what, you are not wanting to code it?
We are not changing Sire of Shards in any mechanical way. Sire of Shards will function in exactly the same way it always has. We have changed a description to remove possible confusion due to using the same word for two different things.
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Ashriel wrote:
Also, yes, I saw a similar answer about a year ago on reddit. Yet if this were true Death's Oath would not work with Arcane Surge but was still suddenly discovered to do so one day and has ever since.
Then you still do not understand the answer. Death's Oath does not have a Duration tag. It cannot be given a duration tag. Arcane Surge can support it, and this gives the skill an effect with a duration. It does not give it the duration tag, and has never done so.
Having an effect with a duration means that other supports that only support skills with a duration will be able to apply. This still has nothing to do with tags.
There are currently no stats that say "Duration Skills have..." in PoE, but if there were, they would not apply to Death's Oath in this situation, because while it gained an effect with a duration (which is what supports care about), it did not gain a tag (which is what stats that identify skills by their tags care about).
These rules have been this way since we first added tags to PoE. Supportability has never cared about tags. Effects which look for tags on skills have never cared about supportability.
I understand, exactly like you do.
(2-3-2019) Buff underused skills (3.23?!)+ selfcast, stop nerfing defense, build in threshold jewels (3.23?!), implement D3-style looting, add death log + MTX preview, actually rework flasks, stop balancing around the .01%, unnerf Harvest, ADD NEW WAYS TO LEVEL, finally implement Loot 2.0
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Posted byAshriel#5520on Dec 11, 2019, 9:33:27 PM
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korn7809 wrote:
Why would RF not work? burning a set area with a consistent nova?
Ongoing effects attached to you are not Novas. We didn't want to (and mechanically can't) make all the auras be novas, and it would feel weird to do so. Novas have to be specifically targeting the location where you are, not you yourself - so Shock Ground is a nova with an ongoing effect, but an aura is not.
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korn7809 wrote:
This might be able to be looked at in future, but it can't interact with this modifier anyway, since the skill itself targets you and puts a buff on you. The explosion that happens around you is later, and isn't caused directly by you casting it, so there's no way to target it anywhere.
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Posted byMark_GGGon Dec 11, 2019, 9:42:53 PMGrinding Gear Games
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Mark_GGG wrote:
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korn7809 wrote:
Why would RF not work? burning a set area with a consistent nova?
Ongoing effects attached to you are not Novas. We didn't want to (and mechanically can't) make all the auras be novas, and it would feel weird to do so. Novas have to be specifically targeting the location where you are, not you yourself - so Shock Ground is a nova with an ongoing effect, but an aura is not.
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korn7809 wrote:
This might be able to be looked at in future, but it can't interact with this modifier anyway, since the skill itself targets you and puts a buff on you. The explosion that happens around you is later, and isn't caused directly by you casting it, so there's no way to target it anywhere.
So only instant effects around yourself can be novas gotcha.
Last edited by korn7809#6196 on Dec 11, 2019, 9:59:08 PM
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Posted bykorn7809#6196on Dec 11, 2019, 9:45:59 PM
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