Please Remove 10% Exp Loss on Death

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ThanatoZGaming wrote:

My proposal - gain XP from idling in hideout. That way I can gain reach level 100 by AFKing and without all that frustration from clicking on monsters.

Incredibly immature response.
Yike.

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Monstarella wrote:

Incredibly immature response.
Yike.

We get a lot of these without any moderation on most of these threads.

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Mortyx wrote:

Actually the root of the problem is not exp penalty. It's the how the gameplay has evolved.

Dying because you made a mistake and being punished because of that is fine for most people.

The problem starts when you don't even know why you died and is being punished, and the speed of the game is the main culprit of this situation.

Everyone is told that you need to finish maps in 1 minute otherwise your build sucks (even Chris implies this in his speeches). The entire game has been balanced around the so called "speed clear meta". Unfortunately the human brain can't really process billions of particles flying everywhere while you move at light speed for a long amount of time.

So instead of only arguing about removing/reworking death penalties we should also discuss about why players are dying so much that the penalty seems too harsh.

So much THIS.
Deaths are more often than not of the form
"No problems here, just shredding through the area without getting any damage - suddenly INSTADEATH without knowing what caused it because there's no form of death log"

That right there is the highly frustrating part, I cannot avoid what killed me because I often don't even know what it was.
Losing hours of progress to that is seriously shitty.

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Yperkeimenos wrote:

With the many one shot mechanics the game employs it's very easy ,even for a meta build, to be killed instantly.

In that regard it's very frustrating to loose 10% exp points, that you need to play a lot in order to regain. In fact you may loose them again,the moment you have recovered them, because some reflect mob ,you didn't notice, entered the screen and one shot you. Or because an enemy spellcaster casted the spell which produces a lightning humanoid that chases you around and can one shot you as well.

The reality of the matter is that no player can prepare/defend against every thing that can kill them ingame and so i'm in favour of removing this 10% limitation.

+1

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Astatine wrote:

My suggestion is to limit XP loss to the point at which you entered the area, so a map might yield zero Xp but not -60% of your next level.

This sounds good.


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As for the argument that removing the penalty would make everyone go glass canon, I find it hard to believe that.
I don't know any lvl 100 players/chars but did they really go full glass cannon once their char reached lvl 100 because the penalty is no longer relevant or did they keep a healthy balance of defense vs offense?
Genuine question here, I find it hard to believe that it would be the former.
Not to mention as has been pointed out before: There still is the penalty of limited attempts for anything - 6 portals, 1-attempt-and-you-need-to-start-again (lab, delve). . . so removing the xp penalty in its current form wouldn't mean there is NO penalty for death anymore. I like Astatine's suggestion in that way, encourages trying hard content but if you fail then at least you don't lose whatever you built up before.

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Wissle wrote:

I don't know any lvl 100 players/chars but did they really go full glass cannon once their char reached lvl 100 because the penalty is no longer relevant or did they keep a healthy balance of defense vs offense?
Genuine question here, I find it hard to believe that it would be the former.

Yes, a lot of players are in fact doing exactly that if they continue to play at 100 because they're actually being rewarded with more loot that way. However, most of them still invest a bit into dodge/block since that's cheap and provides a lot of survivability.

I did it last league and I'll do it again today/tomorrow depending on when I'll be hitting 100 this league.

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Wissle wrote:

Not to mention as has been pointed out before: There still is the penalty of limited attempts for anything - 6 portals, 1-attempt-and-you-need-to-start-again (lab, delve). . . so removing the xp penalty in its current form wouldn't mean there is NO penalty for death anymore. I like Astatine's suggestion in that way, encourages trying hard content but if you fail then at least you don't lose whatever you built up before.

That barely matters tho? You won't die 6 times in maps since you're off-screening everything anyway and the deep delvers or lab speedrunners don't seem to be bothered by it either?

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I don't know any lvl 100 players/chars but did they really go full glass cannon once their char reached lvl 100 because the penalty is no longer relevant or did they keep a healthy balance of defense vs offense?
Genuine question here, I find it hard to believe that it would be the former.

Yes, a lot of players are in fact doing exactly that if they continue to play at 100 because they're actually being rewarded with more loot that way. However, most of them still invest a bit into dodge/block since that's cheap and provides a lot of survivability.

I did it last league and I'll do it again today/tomorrow depending on when I'll be hitting 100 this league.

Huh, good to know. And that bit of block/dodge is not enough for pre-lvl 100 gameplay I assume?

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Scarletsword wrote:

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Wissle wrote:

Not to mention as has been pointed out before: There still is the penalty of limited attempts for anything - 6 portals, 1-attempt-and-you-need-to-start-again (lab, delve). . . so removing the xp penalty in its current form wouldn't mean there is NO penalty for death anymore. I like Astatine's suggestion in that way, encourages trying hard content but if you fail then at least you don't lose whatever you built up before.

That barely matters tho? You won't die 6 times in maps since you're off-screening everything anyway and the deep delvers or lab speedrunners don't seem to be bothered by it either?

In other words: Pros are going to be pros :)
The problem with what you say is that all that only applies to the really good / high tier chars.
To them the death penalty doesn't matter that much anyways because as you say they wipe stuff before they even see it. Unless they also get one-shot from offscreen :'D

If I got it right the main concern here was for the lower tier chars and bad/new players.
For them limited attempts matters A LOT. They pretty much get punished twice for dieing, loss of XP and increased chance of failure of the entire map/run/whatever altogether.

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Wissle wrote:

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Right. A bit of block/dodge is actually not anywhere near enough unless you play with a support but that's an entirely different story.

Also right on the second part. Players that'll actually hit 100 or close to it probably won't complain about the exp loss. 1 or 2 more skill points do not matter. 5% more life won't suddenly enable a build.

However, someone who's playing a "slower" build in early red maps will feel quite punished by it as you said yourself but removing the exp loss won't fix that. The exp loss at that point exists to tell the player that their build isn't ready for this type of content yet.

Now try to come up with a different way of telling that to the player without RNG or high time investment. You'd have to start gating content with arbitrary garbage like level requirements and I'm sure everyone would just absolutely love that.

if youre making everything right you usually dont die and the penality is not going to affect you...
unless
desync
fps drops
dc
clusterfucks of aoes and on death effects
^overlapping nonsense
your own once a day stupidity which leads to a frustrating death which feels "unearned" but takes the 10% nonetheless

and if you make everything wrong you wont kill any major thing as sirus for example and use every 6 portals without finishing anything

glass cannons wont rly get that far do they?

in all honesty the penality is unnecessary crap

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Scarletsword wrote:

Spoiler

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Wissle wrote:

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Right. A bit of block/dodge is actually not anywhere near enough unless you play with a support but that's an entirely different story.

Also right on the second part. Players that'll actually hit 100 or close to it probably won't complain about the exp loss. 1 or 2 more skill points do not matter. 5% more life won't suddenly enable a build.

However, someone who's playing a "slower" build in early red maps will feel quite punished by it as you said yourself but removing the exp loss won't fix that. The exp loss at that point exists to tell the player that their build isn't ready for this type of content yet.

Now try to come up with a different way of telling that to the player without RNG or high time investment. You'd have to start gating content with arbitrary garbage like level requirements and I'm sure everyone would just absolutely love that.

Offscreening is nice, until you actually hit content you can't offscreen - T19 suicidal moded delirium maps are such a thing, as they actually hurt even those multi million DPS builds - even if you clear it deathless, you still have to WASTE more time than on regular T16 maps (we all know proper balancing in PoE regarding map tier scaling and character power scaling is so sublime, it lacks almost completely these days, with either you KO everything or you get KO by everything).

I'm one of the players with a level 100 character that actually complains about the death EXP penalty and the additional EXP gain penalty post level 95. I would also not change my own created build that got me to 100 through mostly sheer power of will, as being artificially walled outside most "END GAME" content due to it's tediousness and DPS checks is not funny at all when you play dual wielding RT - used to play "REAL MELEE" with Static Strike, but the rework made the skill unplayable IMHO as I enjoyed being the "human dynamo" that "sparked" destruction everywhere, the current "puny zap" is so underwhelming, sadly, that no matter the buffs, it feels like @%&* - and you don't scale your damage via DoTs...

I could instantly swap to your regular "multi-million DPS" build, but why would I do that when I actually enjoy taking my time killing every damn enemy and feeling their impact even on difficult modded T16 maps, not only on T19 delirium ones that are like Uber Uber Hard Mode?

I loath playing "easy mode PoE" that devolves the game into "the best pew-pew zoom-zoom Clicker Heroes arcade shooter fiasco" on the market. PoE can still be DIFFICULT and FUN, and even feel FAIR. Sadly, it also requires you to play the game with an appreciation for offmeta builds, items, skills, mechanics and interactions...

Mark my words, if TencentGGG actually "grew some" and actually had confidence in their own game, particularly in their own end game content, the scaling of the EXP gain penalty would be severely toned down with the introduction of proper difficult enemies >90 level, and then the entire death EXP penalty debacle would never exist, but that would actually require the removal of sanctioned EXP gain "cheats" like Beachheads/Pure Breachstones as the best way to gain EXP and would instead rely on >T19 maps and a properly scaled end game content... That needed to always happen, yet sadly, after a few years (we're getting closer to a decade every passing day), they still haven't figured out that DIFFICULT content should be properly rewarded LOOT and EXP wise, because "the technology isn't here" for them to "GIT GUD & UP TO SNUFF"...

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sofocle10000 wrote:

I'm one of the players with a level 100 character that actually complains about the death EXP penalty and the additional EXP gain penalty post level 95.

Nuuuuh, you cannot just be in favor of removing the penalty if you reached level 100.
You must defend it and want it to stay because everyone needs to suffer through the same tedious grind as you did in order to get there :'( </sarcasm>

Make each consecutive death on the same level lose less and less exp. Make it only count as consecutive if you lost exp (this would prevent people from dying a lot at 0% and then grinding once the max penalty reduction kicks in).

For example: every 10% exp lost your penalty decreases by 10% meaning the first time you lose exp you lose 10%, next death would be 9% and so on perhaps capping at 5% lost exp lost per death (penalty would only decrease if you actually lost previous penalty amount of exp on death). After you level up, the penalty gets reset to 10% per death.

You'd still lose exp, just not as much after losing a lot during that specific level.

I think this would nudge players towards reaching higher levels and not really affect races since you dont want to be dying there at all.